Tweed Amps - Asbestos on Backpanel

59TweedVibrolux · June 18th, 2008, 09:38 AM

Was wondering who has removed the White Asbestos Sheet from the Top
Back Panel of their Tweed Amps ?

Is it a health concern leaving it there ??

I'm thinking of wetting it down and removing it from all mine.

Would value some opinions.

**** NOTE **** This Relates to Vintage Tweed Era (1950 - 1961 ) Fender
Amps Only.

graphs · June 18th, 2008, 09:39 AM

asbestos is only a health concern when it is disturbed. if it appears intact, probably best to leave it as is.

allen st. john · June 18th, 2008, 09:51 AM

What he said.
When you disturb asbestos it becomes "friable" and fibers are released into the air and can be inhaled.
If you're not prepared to take it to an asbestos pro who's going to remove it in a hazmat suit, you should leave it alone.
In the process of removing, even if you're careful, it you're likely to be exposed to a huge amount of asbestos. If you leave it alone, the danger is minimal.
And I say this as a guy who's father worked with asbestos and died from an asbestos related disease, so I would never minimize the risk.

best
allen

jhundt · June 18th, 2008, 10:16 AM

I have an old 5E3 that I got at a garage sale; I put a piece of aluminum building tape over the asbestos, this also serves to shield the back of the chassis.

59TweedVibrolux · June 18th, 2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allen st. john

What he said.
When you disturb asbestos it becomes "friable" and fibers are released into the air and can be inhaled.
If you're not prepared to take it to an asbestos pro who's going to remove it in a hazmat suit, you should leave it alone.
In the process of removing, even if you're careful, it you're likely to be exposed to a huge amount of asbestos. If you leave it alone, the danger is minimal.
And I say this as a guy who's father worked with asbestos and died from an asbestos related disease, so I would never minimize the risk.

best
allen

Thanks Allen, I had been advised to soak it well first, then scrape it off, only
when it was completely drenched. On one amp its getting to
the stage of breaking up on one edge, still holding firm at
present. I haven't disturbed any of it. My strong preference
is to take them to a pro though. Its amazing how many still
have it on there, in fact I've seen almost none with it removed
over the past 7 yrs of collecting.?

telel6s · June 18th, 2008, 10:57 AM

In house renovations these days, the preferred method of dealing with old asbestos is to seal and cover it when that is feasible. Floor tiles for example. On my lower level there were tiles that we don't know whether or not it was asbestos....just gave them a coat with a heavy sealer and then installed ceramic tiles right on top.

I'd assume the same for the amp....find something to seal and cover it.

charlie chitlin · June 18th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Just paint it.
If you're concerned with the heat, use high-heat engine paint from the auto parts store.

Silverface · June 19th, 2008, 01:10 AM

"Thanks Allen, I had been advised to soak it well first, then scrape it off, only
when it was completely drenched. On one amp its getting to
the stage of breaking up on one edge, still holding firm at
present."

That's terrible advice, because then you have hazardous waste in your possession, and good luck disposing of it without a fee. And as soon as it's dry, it's friable.

As Charlie said, paint it. Use a high-build elastomeric acrylic. It'll stick, it's not expensive, and it is used commonly in the trade as an asbestos encapsulant.

Tape is a bad idea - because if it's ever sold and someone removes the tape without knowing what's under there, you could be liable. Far less of a chance of that with an elastomeric coating.

FWIW many houses built in the 60's have asbestos in the flooring...not the tiles, but the glue that holds them! Don't ever emove a tile floor without having it tested.

59TweedVibrolux · June 19th, 2008, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverface

"Thanks Allen, I had been advised to soak it well first, then scrape it off, only
when it was completely drenched. On one amp its getting to
the stage of breaking up on one edge, still holding firm at
present."

That's terrible advice, because then you have hazardous waste in your possession, and good luck disposing of it without a fee. And as soon as it's dry, it's friable.

As Charlie said, paint it. Use a high-build elastomeric acrylic. It'll stick, it's not expensive, and it is used commonly in the trade as an asbestos encapsulant.

Tape is a bad idea - because if it's ever sold and someone removes the tape without knowing what's under there, you could be liable. Far less of a chance of that with an elastomeric coating.

FWIW many houses built in the 60's have asbestos in the flooring...not the tiles, but the glue that holds them! Don't ever emove a tile floor without having it tested.

Thanks again Allen, good advice. man, that stuff
is everywhere. Cheers,

jhundt · June 19th, 2008, 10:16 AM

I still recommend conductive tape; if you are worried about liability, grab a Sharpie and write "do not remove - asbestos under this tape!" on it.

allen st. john · June 19th, 2008, 10:36 AM

The soaking and scraping is what a pro would do--but wearing a hazmat suit, an industrial respirator, in a sealed are with a hepa vac filtering the area.

I'm not sure where this is asbestos is located. If it's on the cabinet, I'd advocate covering it with a thin, rigid, removable panel--1/4 pine maybe?-- that could be secured with a few screws. If it's on the metal part of the chassis, maybe a metal plate secured with a couple of clips.

The problem with encapsulating it is that it's pretty much non-reversible and is likely to affect the value of the amp.

JimiBryant · June 19th, 2008, 10:46 AM

in the 1950's I think they put asbestos in everything, even corn flakes.

59TweedVibrolux · June 19th, 2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allen st. john

The soaking and scraping is what a pro would do--but wearing a hazmat suit, an industrial respirator, in a sealed are with a hepa vac filtering the area.

I'm not sure where this is asbestos is located. If it's on the cabinet, I'd advocate covering it with a thin, rigid, removable panel--1/4 pine maybe?-- that could be secured with a few screws. If it's on the metal part of the chassis, maybe a metal plate secured with a couple of clips.

The problem with encapsulating it is that it's pretty much non-reversible and is likely to affect the value of the amp.

Top Rear Panel of all Tweed Amps - A White, Heat Resistant Strip approx 6"
Deep x Width of the Panel for that Model. Covers the exposed Circuit Board/
Chassis when screwed in place.

JohnnyCrash · June 19th, 2008, 10:14 PM

He's in Aussie, so laws may be different there.

I'd call somebody who deals with Asbestos and talk to them. I wouldn't leave it there as it can be very terrible for your lungs.

Ask a pro, get rid of it - do NOT cover it over or ignore it.

A room fan at a gig = poof, an unwitting repairman = poof, a bumpy ride in the trunk = poof. Get it taken care of by a pro.

teleblasterdog · June 19th, 2008, 10:17 PM

abestos is actually good for you if taken in moderation

jhundt · June 19th, 2008, 11:51 PM

there is an amount of hysteria around asbestos. It was common in all kinds of products, the world is full of it. If it's sitting there in the back of your amp it would probably never do you or anyone any harm. Most people who suffer from asbestos-related disease are those who worked in industries that used large quantities of friable asbestos on a regular basis over a long period of time.

As a painter I come across asbestos frequently - it was used in plaster and several other building materials - including floor tiles. I have had several asbestos training sessions. I suspect a professional will tell you that containment is the simplest and best way to treat a small piece of asbestos. Put the asbestos in a place where the fibers can't get loose and float in the air. Like under a layer of tape. Trying to remove it is where you will create a problem.

59TweedVibrolux · June 20th, 2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhundt

there is an amount of hysteria around asbestos. It was common in all kinds of products, the world is full of it. If it's sitting there in the back of your amp it would probably never do you or anyone any harm. Most people who suffer from asbestos-related disease are those who worked in industries that used large quantities of friable asbestos on a regular basis over a long period of time.

As a painter I come across asbestos frequently - it was used in plaster and several other building materials - including floor tiles. I have had several asbestos training sessions. I suspect a professional will tell you that containment is the simplest and best way to treat a small piece of asbestos. Put the asbestos in a place where the fibers can't get loose and float in the air. Like under a layer of tape. Trying to remove it is where you will create a problem.

Thanks Johnny Crash & JHundt, All panels are safely wrapped and sealed in plastic. They are all in good shape, but better to be on the safe side. I will
contact a pro for their recommendation. In 7 yrs of collecting, EVERY Tweed
amp I've seen on ebay / dealers web sites, all have it still on there. Its a wonder it hasn't been more widely publicised amongst players / collectors of
these amps ?? Appreciate your kind input

JohnnyCrash · June 20th, 2008, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhundt

there is an amount of hysteria around asbestos. It was common in all kinds of products, the world is full of it. If it's sitting there in the back of your amp it would probably never do you or anyone any harm. Most people who suffer from asbestos-related disease are those who worked in industries that used large quantities of friable asbestos on a regular basis over a long period of time.

That is true, but still better safe than sorry.

There are some ridiculously strict laws in some States in the US and there is also a great deal of Mesothelioma lawsuits. It would suck if someone sued or simply broke local laws.

I used to work in a construction field that required a lot of time spent in attics and crawlspaces. Mesothelioma is rare, but it's still better in a litigation sense and in a "just in case" sense to get rid of it. We had to learn about it, and where we worked (a lot of schools) simply covering or containing it was not allowed - it had to be removed via Haz-Mat.

In any case we had a rookie 30-something co-worker croak (I think with "pleura" tumors?) and a few old timers with no problems at all.

Obviously the amp hasn't been killing owners in the last 50 years, but you should still check the laws in your area and call someone who knows - sometimes it is strictly regulated.

jhundt · June 20th, 2008, 09:30 AM

of course you are right Johnny Crash - the USA is a very litigious society (is that a real word?... uhh, we like to sue each other)! Wouldn't want to get caught up in that mess; or any possible health problems.

I wonder if someday "original asbestos still in place" will be an important vintage-amp selling point?

beach bob · June 20th, 2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhundt

I wonder if someday "original asbestos still in place" will be an important vintage-amp selling point?

More likely, the EPA or some other 'I'm from the government, I'm here to help you' type agency will step in and force all manner of rules and procedures and limitations on how someone could sell an old amp with asbestos... but maybe that's just my cynical side (It's much more prominent than the other side

)

It seems encapsulation is the best thing to do for the asbestos on the back panel of an amp. That's what they do with lead paint: encapsulate it (= paint over it) to keep the lead from leaching out. It's much cheaper than stripping all the paint and dealing with hazardous waste. If you encapsulate, there's no disposal issue. And done properly, little chance the asbestos can get airborne. As a practical matter, encapsulation really should not devalue an amp... but that's going at it from a logical view. And as we all know, logic tends to fly right out the window when it comes to what affects the collector value of an old amp.

There's the urban myth (truth?) of the homeowner up in New England who broke a compact flourescent bulb in their kid's room, and they knew there was some mercury inside the bulb, so they called the local haz waste authorities for advice on proper cleanup... someone on the gummint end flipped out and sealed off that bedroom for a year until it could be cleaned up. I would hate to see something like that happen to someone's prized tweed amp, because someone overreacted....

Hazardous material is all about exposure time x concentration of the material, and how it gets in your body (inhalation, skin absorption, swallowed, etc.). Lots of products made for home use have higher concentrations of hazardous and deadly ingredients, compared to similar commercial products, because they are used in a home setting: small quantities used, and used infrequently. There's a big difference in exposure to asbestos between someone who worked with the stuff in their job daily, vs. someone with a couple amp back panels that have asbestos sheets on them.

So; yeah. Let's keep this asbestos-sheets-on-the-amp's-back-panel thing on the down low

appar111 · June 20th, 2008, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

He's in Aussie, so laws may be different there.

I'd call somebody who deals with Asbestos and talk to them. I wouldn't leave it there as it can be very terrible for your lungs.

Ask a pro, get rid of it - do NOT cover it over or ignore it.

A room fan at a gig = poof, an unwitting repairman = poof, a bumpy ride in the trunk = poof. Get it taken care of by a pro.

If it is encapsulated properly w/ paint there's no need to spend what could be alot of $$$ on an asbestos pro to remove it. Proper encapsulation and abatement have the same net result - no friable asbestos fibers that can get into the air and your lungs.

jhundt · June 20th, 2008, 12:23 PM

here's the problem with painting the asbestos:

why did they put asbestos in there? because Fender thought there was a heat/fire issue. So, which fire/heat-proof paint are you going to use?

Sheetrock is used for most interior walls in the USA these days. Sheetrock is pretty much fire/flame resistant. The paint on the wall is NOT flame/fire resistant. I have seen films of how a painted sheetrock wall finally goes up in flames. So - the paint will properly encapsulate the asbestos, but may create another problem. And one much more likely to have hazardous effects.

I agree - encapsulate properly and get on with it. But if you don't know what material to use - and you are worried about the exposed asbestos - put a piece of heat-resistant aluminum tape (not duct- or duck-tape) over it. Grab a Sharpie pen - write "asbestos- do not remove tape!!" on it. Make sure the tape is in contact with your chassis when the back plate is attached. Now - you have encapsulated the asbestos AND shielded you amp chassis, which Fender did NOT do.

charlie cash · June 20th, 2008, 12:27 PM

Asbestos causes several diseases. Asbestosis is caused by heavy exposure to airborne fibers and is essentially a scaring of the lung tissue, so that prevents your lungs from transferring oxygen to the blooodstream. Mesothelioma is a fatal cancer of the lining of the lung (no cure, painful and horrible) that is also only caused by asbestos. Though the disease is less common, it can be caused by a single exposure to a small amount of airborne asbestos fibers. It also causes lung cancer.

Encapsulation with the elastomeric acrylic is the best, safest do it yourself option, and probably the best option even if you have it done by an asbestos abatement professional.

Teledbalsterdog's comment that it is good for you in moderation is incorrect. I think he meant it as a joke, but I'm not sure.

59TweedVibrolux · June 20th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlie cash

Asbestos causes several diseases. Asbestosis is caused by heavy exposure to airborne fibers and is essentially a scaring of the lung tissue, so that prevents your lungs from transferring oxygen to the blooodstream. Mesothelioma is a fatal cancer of the lining of the lung (no cure, painful and horrible) that is also only caused by asbestos. Though the disease is less common, it can be caused by a single exposure to a small amount of airborne asbestos fibers. It also causes lung cancer.

Encapsulation with the elastomeric acrylic is the best, safest do it yourself option, and probably the best option even if you have it done by an asbestos abatement professional.

Teledbalsterdog's comment that it is good for you in moderation is incorrect. I think he meant it as a joke, but I'm not sure.

Thanks, took it as a joke, but those dying from asbestos related diseases
sure wouldn't. Cheers.

June 18th, 2008, 09:38 AM	#1 (permalink)
59TweedVibrolux Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 261	Vintage Tweed Amps - Asbestos on Backpanel Was wondering who has removed the White Asbestos Sheet from the Top Back Panel of their Tweed Amps ? Is it a health concern leaving it there ?? I'm thinking of wetting it down and removing it from all mine. Would value some opinions. ** NOTE ** This Relates to Vintage Tweed Era (1950 - 1961 ) Fender Amps Only. Last edited by 59TweedVibrolux : June 25th, 2008 at 06:16 AM.

June 18th, 2008, 10:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
telel6s Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,154 80 Photos	In house renovations these days, the preferred method of dealing with old asbestos is to seal and cover it when that is feasible. Floor tiles for example. On my lower level there were tiles that we don't know whether or not it was asbestos....just gave them a coat with a heavy sealer and then installed ceramic tiles right on top. I'd assume the same for the amp....find something to seal and cover it. __________________ Mama always said, "A little tone is good for the soul."

June 18th, 2008, 08:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
charlie chitlin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bucktown, Pa Age: 46 Posts: 2,111	Just paint it. If you're concerned with the heat, use high-heat engine paint from the auto parts store. __________________ Nil illigitimi carborundum http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...6-bf3537901a07

June 19th, 2008, 01:10 AM	#8 (permalink)
Silverface Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hermosa Beach CA Age: 56 Posts: 1,865	"Thanks Allen, I had been advised to soak it well first, then scrape it off, only when it was completely drenched. On one amp its getting to the stage of breaking up on one edge, still holding firm at present." That's terrible advice, because then you have hazardous waste in your possession, and good luck disposing of it without a fee. And as soon as it's dry, it's friable. As Charlie said, paint it. Use a high-build elastomeric acrylic. It'll stick, it's not expensive, and it is used commonly in the trade as an asbestos encapsulant. Tape is a bad idea - because if it's ever sold and someone removes the tape without knowing what's under there, you could be liable. Far less of a chance of that with an elastomeric coating. FWIW many houses built in the 60's have asbestos in the flooring...not the tiles, but the glue that holds them! Don't ever emove a tile floor without having it tested. __________________ “No Chops – Great Tone” ©

June 19th, 2008, 10:46 AM	#12 (permalink)
JimiBryant Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Chicago Chicago that toddlin' town Age: 46 Posts: 1,579	in the 1950's I think they put asbestos in everything, even corn flakes. __________________ I'm sick and tired of following my dreams, so I'm just gonna ask 'em where they're going and hook up with them later!

June 18th, 2008, 09:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
graphs Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 504	asbestos is only a health concern when it is disturbed. if it appears intact, probably best to leave it as is.

June 18th, 2008, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
allen st. john Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 688	What he said. When you disturb asbestos it becomes "friable" and fibers are released into the air and can be inhaled. If you're not prepared to take it to an asbestos pro who's going to remove it in a hazmat suit, you should leave it alone. In the process of removing, even if you're careful, it you're likely to be exposed to a huge amount of asbestos. If you leave it alone, the danger is minimal. And I say this as a guy who's father worked with asbestos and died from an asbestos related disease, so I would never minimize the risk. best allen

June 18th, 2008, 10:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 2,811 9 Photos	I have an old 5E3 that I got at a garage sale; I put a piece of aluminum building tape over the asbestos, this also serves to shield the back of the chassis.

June 19th, 2008, 10:16 AM	#10 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 2,811 9 Photos	I still recommend conductive tape; if you are worried about liability, grab a Sharpie and write "do not remove - asbestos under this tape!" on it.

June 19th, 2008, 10:36 AM	#11 (permalink)
allen st. john Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 688	The soaking and scraping is what a pro would do--but wearing a hazmat suit, an industrial respirator, in a sealed are with a hepa vac filtering the area. I'm not sure where this is asbestos is located. If it's on the cabinet, I'd advocate covering it with a thin, rigid, removable panel--1/4 pine maybe?-- that could be secured with a few screws. If it's on the metal part of the chassis, maybe a metal plate secured with a couple of clips. The problem with encapsulating it is that it's pretty much non-reversible and is likely to affect the value of the amp.

June 19th, 2008, 10:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
JohnnyCrash Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lost Angeles and Orange County Posts: 7,128	He's in Aussie, so laws may be different there. I'd call somebody who deals with Asbestos and talk to them. I wouldn't leave it there as it can be very terrible for your lungs. Ask a pro, get rid of it - do NOT cover it over or ignore it. A room fan at a gig = poof, an unwitting repairman = poof, a bumpy ride in the trunk = poof. Get it taken care of by a pro.

June 19th, 2008, 10:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
teleblasterdog Banned TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: PA Age: 32 Posts: 81	abestos is actually good for you if taken in moderation

June 19th, 2008, 11:51 PM	#16 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 2,811 9 Photos	there is an amount of hysteria around asbestos. It was common in all kinds of products, the world is full of it. If it's sitting there in the back of your amp it would probably never do you or anyone any harm. Most people who suffer from asbestos-related disease are those who worked in industries that used large quantities of friable asbestos on a regular basis over a long period of time. As a painter I come across asbestos frequently - it was used in plaster and several other building materials - including floor tiles. I have had several asbestos training sessions. I suspect a professional will tell you that containment is the simplest and best way to treat a small piece of asbestos. Put the asbestos in a place where the fibers can't get loose and float in the air. Like under a layer of tape. Trying to remove it is where you will create a problem.

June 20th, 2008, 09:30 AM	#19 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 2,811 9 Photos	of course you are right Johnny Crash - the USA is a very litigious society (is that a real word?... uhh, we like to sue each other)! Wouldn't want to get caught up in that mess; or any possible health problems. I wonder if someday "original asbestos still in place" will be an important vintage-amp selling point?

June 20th, 2008, 12:23 PM	#22 (permalink)
jhundt Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Age: 54 Posts: 2,811 9 Photos	here's the problem with painting the asbestos: why did they put asbestos in there? because Fender thought there was a heat/fire issue. So, which fire/heat-proof paint are you going to use? Sheetrock is used for most interior walls in the USA these days. Sheetrock is pretty much fire/flame resistant. The paint on the wall is NOT flame/fire resistant. I have seen films of how a painted sheetrock wall finally goes up in flames. So - the paint will properly encapsulate the asbestos, but may create another problem. And one much more likely to have hazardous effects. I agree - encapsulate properly and get on with it. But if you don't know what material to use - and you are worried about the exposed asbestos - put a piece of heat-resistant aluminum tape (not duct- or duck-tape) over it. Grab a Sharpie pen - write "asbestos- do not remove tape!!" on it. Make sure the tape is in contact with your chassis when the back plate is attached. Now - you have encapsulated the asbestos AND shielded you amp chassis, which Fender did NOT do.

June 20th, 2008, 12:27 PM	#23 (permalink)
charlie cash Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Aspen, CO Posts: 308	Asbestos causes several diseases. Asbestosis is caused by heavy exposure to airborne fibers and is essentially a scaring of the lung tissue, so that prevents your lungs from transferring oxygen to the blooodstream. Mesothelioma is a fatal cancer of the lining of the lung (no cure, painful and horrible) that is also only caused by asbestos. Though the disease is less common, it can be caused by a single exposure to a small amount of airborne asbestos fibers. It also causes lung cancer. Encapsulation with the elastomeric acrylic is the best, safest do it yourself option, and probably the best option even if you have it done by an asbestos abatement professional. Teledbalsterdog's comment that it is good for you in moderation is incorrect. I think he meant it as a joke, but I'm not sure.