Ceriatone Overtone Special?

ramseybella · June 12th, 2008, 10:09 PM

I am sure this is become a dead horse subject, but how are these Overtone Specials as far as hitting the Dumble mark has anybody built one just on the schematics on the Ceriatone site?

mr_hankey · June 13th, 2008, 07:13 AM

As long as you're getting the schematic right, you'll be very close to the sound. Using the right component types is another thing. The Ceriatone has a good schematic; it will sound like a Dumble (but perhaps lack that 'magic' that they have). I think you'd have to A/B it with the real thing to really find out how close it is.

My ODS clone (schematic quite similar to the Ceriatone) sounds just like I had heard in many recordings; so if that's the sound you're going for, I think you'll find it.

stratohiker · June 13th, 2008, 07:58 AM

I ordered one assembled (chassis w/tubes). I'm anxiously awaiting it. Course, it's gonna be roughly about 2 months before I get it. Unless Nik's trying to keep up with his escalated biz by hiring more techs. After much research around the web (youtube, lurking and posting in forums, etc). I think I'll be satisfied with it. I got Mike over at http://www.ampcabco.com/index.htm making me an HAD type oversized open back 1 12 cab and he's also got another customer's actual Overtone head cab coming into his shop so he can "clone" that for that customer and me in a lighter pine construction. I'm sure it will be a much nicer version anyway. BTW, Nik's incorporating all the mods people are obsessing about in the other forums in the latest builds. I asked him, he said so.........

zeeman · June 13th, 2008, 08:48 AM

Some of the you tube clips have been very impressive. Hard to judge by those clips but it's all I've got. Got one of their 5e3 clones and it's incredible. I've been contemplating the OTS myself so am also interested in any comments.

11 Gauge · June 13th, 2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_hankey

Using the right component types is another thing.

The right component types issue is debateable - I've heard of a few instances where folks have peeked inside a Dumble chassis to find some cheap Radio Shack quality parts inside.

Not trying to start an argument - just trying to state that a lot of the mojo and magic from such mythical legendary amps as the Dumbles, Trainwrecks, etc. has more to do with the value of the component as opposed to it's type or composition.

reverbbb · June 13th, 2008, 11:34 AM

I chatted with the guy who sells these kits (forget his name - Nigel?). I asked him a lot of questions about the Trainwreck clone. Then I asked him questions about a Dumble equivalent. At that moment (roughly 9 months ago), he said that he had a prototype of a Dumble but had not configured a kit to sell. This is obviously old news. However, during that conversation, he said that he prefers the simplicity of the Trainwreck better. Dumbles take a lot of fine tuning of the knobs to acheive specific tones. Dumbles are not dial in friendly on a fast paced stage performance.

I had the good fortune to play an actual Dumble last summer in Nashville. Since I was live on stage and the Dumble was simply a backline amp for my three songs, I did not get any chance to test out the knobs. The owner of the amp was EXTREMELY clear that he did not want anyone adjusting his settings. That tends to reinforce what the owner of Ceritone was telling me.

There is a guy named Glenn Kuykendall that owns like #2 Trainwreck. He has had the chance to A/B his Trainwreck to a Ceritone build. He prefers his Trainwreck as a clear winner in sustain and touch sensativity. But he said the Ceritone was fairly close in tone, just not the 'magical sustain'. Glenn also played the same Dumble that day in Nashville. He felt cheated that he was not allowed to dial the Dumble in to his liking. Based on the setting the owner wanted to maintain, Glenn was not impressed with the Dumble. Given the chance to dial in the Dumble, that might have been a whole different experience for Glenn and I both.

I am not trying to talk you out of the Overtone Special. But these are testimonials that I thought I would share. I have never played any of the Ceritone builds myself.

fierce_carrot · June 13th, 2008, 05:58 PM

I've got a ceriatone Trainwreck Liverpool and while it might not be a real wreck, it gets me right into the ball game and gives me an amp that makes other guitar players go "WTF IS THAT THING" when I play out. One can compare the originals to the copies/clones all they want but the final thing to consider is that for the first time ever, these almost mythical amp circuits, once the exclusive playground of the uber elite, are now in the hot hands of local players and the possibilities are absolutely staggering when you consider the possibilities.

Texsunburst59 · June 13th, 2008, 08:05 PM

My main collection is Fenders amps,but I do have 3 Mk Boogies, Sewell, and my newest amp is a Brown Note D'Lite 44 "ODE". It's a dumble clone like the Ceriatone. It's more expensive,and I could have gotten it in kit form for a lot cheaper,but didn't want to put it together. Anyway, I get a big variety of cool tones and a really sweet overdrive tone that I just can't get with my Fenders and pedals, or dial in with my Boogies. Here's a link to my soundclick page. It seems a ton of people are into the Dumble clone kick, including myself.Most of the first 8-10 clips are of the D'lite.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

11 Gauge · June 13th, 2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverbbb

There is a guy named Glenn Kuykendall that owns like #2 Trainwreck. He has had the chance to A/B his Trainwreck to a Ceritone build. He prefers his Trainwreck as a clear winner in sustain and touch sensativity. But he said the Ceritone was fairly close in tone, just not the 'magical sustain'.

You could not have put that any better.

It's so easy to forget that each of those original amps was pretty much tweaked for the individual customer, or simply tweaked on the builder's tastes, intuitions, et al at the time. To clone such an amp is really a HUGE challenge, and takes a lot of guts, IMO.

If the owner of the real deal is willing to say that a clone is "fairly close in tone," that is a testament unto itself.

Nik could just play it safe and offer the standard Plexi, 18 Watt, 5E3, etc. kits - but he actually has enough affection, drive, and respect for the more challenging designs to include them as well. For amp nuts like us, this is nothing short of a golden age of sorts.

mr_hankey · June 14th, 2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11 Gauge

The right component types issue is debateable - I've heard of a few instances where folks have peeked inside a Dumble chassis to find some cheap Radio Shack quality parts inside.

Not trying to start an argument - just trying to state that a lot of the mojo and magic from such mythical legendary amps as the Dumbles, Trainwrecks, etc. has more to do with the value of the component as opposed to it's type or composition.

The real magic in the Dumbles did come from component types. HAD (Howard Alexander Dumble) built the amps around the transformers, and knew how to compensate for other component (type) changes as well. That's why it's nearly impossible to make an exact clone: you can't just copy the schematic and pictures you've seen; since you will have differences anyway. That is also why every single amp of his in unique.

My copy can get the sound, but it doesn't get that 'magical sustain' which lets it feedback at low volumes. I didn't try to make an exact copy at all, I just used what parts I could get, and made minor changes to the schematic. I used a mix of CF and MF resistors, 715P Orange drop caps, Fender transformers, and TAD 'Gold' electrolytics.

11 Gauge · June 14th, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_hankey

The real magic in the Dumbles did come from component types. HAD (Howard Alexander Dumble) built the amps around the transformers, and knew how to compensate for other component (type) changes as well.

Actually, you just reinforced my original point. The builder compensates the design around parts that are relatively fixed. The trannies may be key, but at the same time, HAD, Fischer, et al could go to a different tranny and compensate around that one. The specific type of component is not as critical as it's value, IMO.

In the grand scheme of things, even a Dumble amp is another example of a somewhat crude design. Everyone likes to point to the parts of the amp rather than the sum of the parts (or their unique combination/configuration) and insist that it is where the magic comes from. In other words, match the parts verbatim, and you've got a carbon copy of the original. But it doesn't work that way, does it?

For anyone who's cloned a classic design, they can typically tell you that they got somewhere in the ballpark by matching stuff as close as possible. But that's where you've got to have intuition, experience, and intelligence to tweak it into something really good.

Bbenderman · June 14th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Hello
I wait for my Overtone Special and i wonder which speaker i must choose.
I play Telecaster clean sound and i like fat warm tone.
Tone Tubby Alnico 12" ?
Jensen® P-12R ?

stratohiker · June 15th, 2008, 08:17 AM

Well, I'll chime in and say that I've found alot of people are using either this: http://professional.celestion.com/gu...tail.asp?ID=32

Or this: http://www.electrovoice.com/products/410.html

I'm gonna use my JBL E120 in the cabinet referenced in my above post. I've probably had that JBL in 6 amps or so. It never fails to produce a good tone for me.

June 12th, 2008, 10:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
ramseybella Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Santa Fe New Mexico Posts: 1,027 48 Photos	Ceriatone Overtone Special? I am sure this is become a dead horse subject, but how are these Overtone Specials as far as hitting the Dumble mark has anybody built one just on the schematics on the Ceriatone site?

June 13th, 2008, 11:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
reverbbb Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Just Plano, Texas Age: 49 Posts: 3,606 33 Photos	I chatted with the guy who sells these kits (forget his name - Nigel?). I asked him a lot of questions about the Trainwreck clone. Then I asked him questions about a Dumble equivalent. At that moment (roughly 9 months ago), he said that he had a prototype of a Dumble but had not configured a kit to sell. This is obviously old news. However, during that conversation, he said that he prefers the simplicity of the Trainwreck better. Dumbles take a lot of fine tuning of the knobs to acheive specific tones. Dumbles are not dial in friendly on a fast paced stage performance. I had the good fortune to play an actual Dumble last summer in Nashville. Since I was live on stage and the Dumble was simply a backline amp for my three songs, I did not get any chance to test out the knobs. The owner of the amp was EXTREMELY clear that he did not want anyone adjusting his settings. That tends to reinforce what the owner of Ceritone was telling me. There is a guy named Glenn Kuykendall that owns like #2 Trainwreck. He has had the chance to A/B his Trainwreck to a Ceritone build. He prefers his Trainwreck as a clear winner in sustain and touch sensativity. But he said the Ceritone was fairly close in tone, just not the 'magical sustain'. Glenn also played the same Dumble that day in Nashville. He felt cheated that he was not allowed to dial the Dumble in to his liking. Based on the setting the owner wanted to maintain, Glenn was not impressed with the Dumble. Given the chance to dial in the Dumble, that might have been a whole different experience for Glenn and I both. I am not trying to talk you out of the Overtone Special. But these are testimonials that I thought I would share. I have never played any of the Ceritone builds myself. __________________ "I come here to reflect a little."™ http://www.myspace.com/reverbbb2 Guitarist Praise & Worship Forum

June 13th, 2008, 07:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
mr_hankey Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Netherlands Age: 19 Posts: 237	As long as you're getting the schematic right, you'll be very close to the sound. Using the right component types is another thing. The Ceriatone has a good schematic; it will sound like a Dumble (but perhaps lack that 'magic' that they have). I think you'd have to A/B it with the real thing to really find out how close it is. My ODS clone (schematic quite similar to the Ceriatone) sounds just like I had heard in many recordings; so if that's the sound you're going for, I think you'll find it.

June 13th, 2008, 07:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
stratohiker Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 149	I ordered one assembled (chassis w/tubes). I'm anxiously awaiting it. Course, it's gonna be roughly about 2 months before I get it. Unless Nik's trying to keep up with his escalated biz by hiring more techs. After much research around the web (youtube, lurking and posting in forums, etc). I think I'll be satisfied with it. I got Mike over at http://www.ampcabco.com/index.htm making me an HAD type oversized open back 1 12 cab and he's also got another customer's actual Overtone head cab coming into his shop so he can "clone" that for that customer and me in a lighter pine construction. I'm sure it will be a much nicer version anyway. BTW, Nik's incorporating all the mods people are obsessing about in the other forums in the latest builds. I asked him, he said so.........

June 13th, 2008, 08:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
zeeman Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 314 5 Photos	Some of the you tube clips have been very impressive. Hard to judge by those clips but it's all I've got. Got one of their 5e3 clones and it's incredible. I've been contemplating the OTS myself so am also interested in any comments.

June 13th, 2008, 05:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
fierce_carrot Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Iowa Age: 52 Posts: 985	I've got a ceriatone Trainwreck Liverpool and while it might not be a real wreck, it gets me right into the ball game and gives me an amp that makes other guitar players go "WTF IS THAT THING" when I play out. One can compare the originals to the copies/clones all they want but the final thing to consider is that for the first time ever, these almost mythical amp circuits, once the exclusive playground of the uber elite, are now in the hot hands of local players and the possibilities are absolutely staggering when you consider the possibilities.

June 13th, 2008, 08:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
Texsunburst59 Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 350	My main collection is Fenders amps,but I do have 3 Mk Boogies, Sewell, and my newest amp is a Brown Note D'Lite 44 "ODE". It's a dumble clone like the Ceriatone. It's more expensive,and I could have gotten it in kit form for a lot cheaper,but didn't want to put it together. Anyway, I get a big variety of cool tones and a really sweet overdrive tone that I just can't get with my Fenders and pedals, or dial in with my Boogies. Here's a link to my soundclick page. It seems a ton of people are into the Dumble clone kick, including myself.Most of the first 8-10 clips are of the D'lite. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

June 14th, 2008, 01:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
Bbenderman TDPRI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sweden Age: 34 Posts: 25	Hello I wait for my Overtone Special and i wonder which speaker i must choose. I play Telecaster clean sound and i like fat warm tone. Tone Tubby Alnico 12" ? Jensen® P-12R ?

June 15th, 2008, 08:17 AM	#13 (permalink)
stratohiker Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Savannah, GA Posts: 149	Well, I'll chime in and say that I've found alot of people are using either this: http://professional.celestion.com/gu...tail.asp?ID=32 Or this: http://www.electrovoice.com/products/410.html I'm gonna use my JBL E120 in the cabinet referenced in my above post. I've probably had that JBL in 6 amps or so. It never fails to produce a good tone for me.