Vintage Prices, EBay and Otherwise...

[5259]

I think this is ridiculous, I've been casually looking for a 1959 Bassman for a while now, I've found a few good ones, some REALLY bad ones, but they're all going for between $9000 and $16,000. There's no way. It's just stupid, not worth it,
I don't care what amp it is or how original.

I'd lay out $3000 cash for a '59, maybe a bit more...but that'd have to be all original.

PS, if there's anyone reasonable looking to sell...

[Big John]

Surely for $3000 you could get a clone of some description ?

I must admit i never quite get it with using 'vintage ' amps, so many of the components go 'out of spec' over the years and have to be replaced, many folks replace transformers, do cap jobs etc so at the end of it there only seems to be the cabinet left from the original.

Do people still use 50 year old power tools ?, i'm just a wee bit frightened of anything that old and electrical, surely a nice spanky, clean new one (distressed if you want) would be a better, more reliable bet and sound closer to the original tone than one that has been tinkered with all it's life ?

I'm not 'down' on vintage gear either, a 50 year old guitar amplifier is a wondrous thing to see and in the case of the Bassman a historically important thing but i couldn't imagine regularly throwing it in the back of a truck and gigging with it.

[Lance]

I'm not sure you have a realistic expectation. Forgetting that the market value is the market value....(because that's the price, like it or not)

A '59 bassman is going to need fixing. Parts will be shot...the speakers would be in tatters by now. Getting a completely original one is bound to be unplayable. Anything that's made it this long without significant work is bound to be a fortune.

For $3K....just get a Victoria bassman and maybe another guitar! You'll have an amp that'll be 1000 times more dependable and you won't panic every time you take it out of the house.

[greggorypeccary]

Originally Posted by Lance

I'm not sure you have a realistic expectation. Forgetting that the market value is the market value....(because that's the price, like it or not)

A '59 bassman is going to need fixing. Parts will be shot...the speakers would be in tatters by now. Getting a completely original one is bound to be unplayable. Anything that's made it this long without significant work is bound to be a fortune.

For $3K....just get a Victoria bassman and maybe another guitar! You'll have an amp that'll be 1000 times more dependable and you won't panic every time you take it out of the house.

That's the irony. The highest valued stuff, from a "collector's" viewpoint is "all-original". That same quality would make it useless to a real player. That's why I just picked up a SFDR (with pull-boost at that!). All the classic Fender tone, properly tuned up (new caps etc.) at a fraction of the cost of a "collector's" amp, and less than a new "boutique" reproduction too.
Yeah, I plan to use it, not just look at it!

[Dennis68]

If the prices are a point of contention, that is the very moment in time you define yourself as a collector, or not, as it were.

[Wally]

Good observation, Dennis. There was a thread on the $16,000 ebay BAssman over on Vintage amps forum. Soem people noted that the seller was a bit harsh....a jerk in their words....in his reactions to soem questions. I read the Q&A on the auction. The seller was a bit pointed in his responses, but the questions weremore abrasive and less-informed than were the responses.
To paraphrase, the seller told the questioners stay off the field of play unless they wanted to play in the big leagues. There are markets of differents types for different things. Some amplifiers are more than just amplifiers, just as some cars are more than just cars. Collectors operate with different requirements than do 'players'...even if the collector happens to be a good player at the same time. Adn...some players gig their vintage equipment.
Mint pieces probalby don't get taken to smoky 'chicken-wire' clubs, but some folks use 'em. Keith Richards for one. I have customers who play out with valuable old amps...not mint...but valuable. These amps are proven roadworthy and as reliable as new amps (if the new amps are handwired....more reliable than if the new amp is PCB).
I can't afford that $16,000 Bassman, either; but I am not go ing to take the position that the market is wackyh just because I can't buy it.

[e-merlin]

Originally Posted by 5259

I'd lay out $3000 cash for a '59, maybe a bit more...but that'd have to be all original.

PS, if there's anyone reasonable looking to sell...

How is a person reasonable if they're willing to forgo 2/3 of their amp's market value? That's just crazy.


There are a lot of frustrated jocks out there who have to settle for working for a living instead of playing in the big leagues. Lesson? It's OK to dream, just don't expect your dream to come true.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 5259

I think this is ridiculous, I've been casually looking for a 1959 Bassman for a while now, I've found a few good ones, some REALLY bad ones, but they're all going for between $9000 and $16,000. There's no way. It's just stupid, not worth it,
I don't care what amp it is or how original.

I'd lay out $3000 cash for a '59, maybe a bit more...but that'd have to be all original.

PS, if there's anyone reasonable looking to sell...

5259, I have a '59 5F6A in the shop awaiting ressurection. Cosmetically, it is better than the $16000 ebay amp. It is missing one orignal speaker, and the PT is being rewound. Those two things are hits on the market value. The owner was offerred $5K for it as it sits. NO deal.

[pedenphoto]

I have to weigh in on this one. I've been involved in vintage guitars since the 70s mainly as a photographer. When I did a monthly spread for Guitar World, I had an active network of dealers searching for photo worthy guitars. I used to get a lot of calls from musicians who thought I could help them locate their dream guitar. The phone caller usually established a few basic facts, #1 they were worthy guitar players knowledgeable and #2 didn't want to spend a lot of money on their dream. I was always amazed when they began to lay out the requirements for their player guitar "must be Surf Green" "can't have seen a soldering iron since Kalamazo". These always seemed like COLLECTORS CRITERIA not players. When I would point out that so and so had a really good well priced strat but the middle had been replaced or the Les Paul was cheap because a Bigsby had been removed. I could feel the disdain through the phone line. I often had the feeling that these callers needed to figure out if they were players or collectors, not that you can't be both. Now a good word for collectors. A collection is not a hoard. Good collectors put something back into the well. We would not have any great 18th century violins today had there been no collectors who acquired and preserved them. As far as reissues vs originals, it is my feeling that one of the joys of originals is discovering new things about them to appreciate. Leo never imagined all the champs would be on 10 and he certainly never imagined what Jimi was going to do to his strats. Reissues which certainly are a practical solution in a lot of cases sometimes just don't have the unintended consequences built in and they don't increase in value the way a good original will. However there are many paths to Nirvana. Did any of you see the Twin 5D-8? chassis on E-bay last week? It was beautiful and went cheap in my opinion. What a great candidate for a restoration project. These days to get a complete original spec cabinet, speakers, tubes etc it is just a phone call or e-mail away. What player that wants this model to play through wouldn't be happy with this combo when completed? Can you feel the disdain? Which brings me to the lead in to this thread. I'm not trying to put anyone down but who today "casually looks for a '59 Bassman for $3000.00 that has to be mint" I work for a living and I can't afford many of the cool things but I never regretted paying top dollar for clean original pieces i've found. They have never let me down. I'm proud to own them I take care of them and I share them when appropriate. See the Bassman on pg. 167 of "The Soul of Tone" With all respect to members of this forum be they collectors, players or both. It always comes down to music. Peden

[Dennis68]

Originally Posted by Wally

Good observation, Dennis. .......

Thanks Wally! And your post was a very refreshing view on this topic that I completely share and agree with you on. That old sayiing "it is what it is" always holds true to pricing of vintage collectibles. And the real value is always the price the buyer and seller agree to. And for years now buyers and sellers have been agreeing on higher prices for vintage amps. It is what it is...

[G-P]

Just adding the tag 'vintage' to an amp increases the asking price. A 59 Bassman is indeed a highly coveted amplifier. If a 59 Bassman is what you NEED, then I suggest you start saving your money because no one is going to devalue that amp just because someone needs it.

I need a Plexi, but I haven't been able to find anyone that will sell one to me for a lot less than what others are willing to pay. If something doesn't happen soon, I'm gonna hold my breath until someone sells me one real cheap.

[Telenator]

I'm selling all my vintage gear. It simply IS NOT all it's cracked up to be. To a collector, maybe. To someone who goes out and gigs on a regular basis, no way. The new repro amps sound much better than the originals and have reliability isuues. I have a museum quality '67 BFSR that I'm afraid to turn on for fear of blowing one of the original RCA black plate tubes or the original Mullard GZ34 rectifier. Don't even get me started on the caps and transformers! That's no way to live!

[5259]

WOAH, ok, ok, hold on here everybody, maybe my post was coming across a bit more serious than I meant it, The "looking to sell" was a bit of a joke. I don't really expect to purchase a 1959 bassman for $3-4,000. I was just expressing my feeling on the prices, I actually have a 5F6-A that I built which i use every night on the road, I just feel that $12,000 is too much for any amp.
I also think it's a bit nuts sometimes, people spend money out of their budget,get in trouble with wives, go into debt, all for tone. I read it all the time on this forum, I'm just saying that it seems a bit unfair to the working class players, but boo hoo for me right? I'm just banging on about it, no harm intended.
And casually looking means just that, casually...ie... not intending to buy unless something ridiculous happened. Ease up on the sarcasm, it's a forum, I was just kinda sounding off there. I'll be more careful next time.

[G-P]

5259, sorry, I was just having some fun with you. In retrospect, my post did come off a bit harsh. Again, sorry 'bout that.

The guys with the 'vintage' equipment don't set the price. The guys that have money to burn and/or want to relive their youth or have bragging rights, set the price.

Back in the late 80's the Japanese business class ran prices through the roof on 'vintage' guitars, Strats® namely. Until then, you buy a 60's or late 50's Strat® for very little compared to a new Strat® of the day.

Hard saying what tools we use today that will be tomorrows 'vintage' must have.

Okay, I just exhaled and feel much better now.

[Dacious]

Things are worth what people are prepared to pay - to me no way is a piece of detroit iron from the 60's worth several hundred g's, but a pristine unrestored Camaro wth original matching numbers goes for that, to some guy who maybe built them on minimum wage, or lusted after them as a young college student or low wage earner; and can now afford one.

I love P51s and would love to own or fly one. Never will, and I envy those who can afford the megadollars of upkeep let alone purchase price. Doesn't mean they should lower the price for me. As pedenphot says, it ensures the remaining ones are owned by serious 'players' who can afford to have them cared for, and not trashed by punks with no appreciation - although it is no guarantee they won't be picked up by rich punks with no appreciation!

Please note, I'm not implying any poster here is a punk. let alone one with no appreciation!

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by 5259

WOAH, ok, ok, hold on here everybody, maybe my post was coming across a bit more serious than I meant it, The "looking to sell" was a bit of a joke. I don't really expect to purchase a 1959 bassman for $3-4,000. I was just expressing my feeling on the prices, I actually have a 5F6-A that I built which i use every night on the road, I just feel that $12,000 is too much for any amp.

I knew what you meant when you wrote your post. I think yeah, I'll start looking to buy them when they fall to $ 3,000-4,000.00, probably not before.

And I agree with Telenator, if I owned one right now and could get $ 10,000.00 for it, I'd sell it.

Having a number set in your mind can be useful; someday if the transaction becomes possible, it is nice to have thought it out. If it never happens, gotta be prepared for that too, I suppose. I gotta right to suppose a dollar value I think is fair; to suggest that the market is out of whack if that what your senses tell you that, I'm all for hearing about it.

[Steve327]

Nice to find this board and some lively debate over such things.
As a vintage amp player and collector I am often amused at some sellers on ebay and what they try to pull off on the ebay market.

First off, on the eBay market a decent narrow panel Bassman can still be had for $5500-9500. For the $5500 end expect the caps and possibly one or more speakers changed out and the tweed nearly gone. maybe an output transformer changed as well. But you can still get a decent stock narrow panel bassman under $10K. About 3 years ago a couple of them popped on ebay and brought in the 11-14K range. However after this splash several more have hit the ebay market and have kept a steady trickle since then thereby keeping values well under $10K. Dubious private auctions with shilling not withstanding.

$16K on the ebay market is clearly pricing it based on speculated future value. The market on the Bassmans is currently down and to recover on ebay your going to have to see either a year or so of no stock Bassman showing up in a listing (not likely) or one that is especially minty condition.

I have a 60 Bassman that is in better shape than the one on ebay and has even the Q grade speakers. I paid $8000 for it and in today's market I'd be thrilled to get $10K for it. It just ain't happening.

Now are there vintage shops out there that have a lot of insanely overpriced gear? Sure are! they base their prices on the '1 sucker' principal. It only takes 1 sucker to walk in with deep pockets and not know he can get it cheaper on ebay, or who doesn't want to deal with internet commerce , or just plain doesn't know any better!

I see the seller of the $16k Bassman is not afraid to price other things outrageously either.
I saw his last weeks listing for the Bassman and the comments made. I find his replies to be insulting and offensive and his reference to an auction which allegedly brought 14k for a Bassman to be dubious given it's private nature. (You can not confirm the transaction as being valid under a private auction. the guy may well have shilled his own goods just to set an alleged value on the market. This happened last year with a 63 Vibroverb bringing an alleged $16K. that was phony as well as I know the underbidder was offered a second chance deal a day later. While that auction wasn't private, ebay's guising of IDs doesn't help matters)

In my opinion, as seems to be established by past legit auctions of Bassman over the last couple years, it would seem a narrow panel can be gotten for $6-8K on average.

$16k is as outlandish as when he tries to sell that tweed twin for $35K. Given his apparent attitude this all seems more like a glorified show and tell for him rather than an earnest attempt to sell something. He certainly must track the market trend for each model and know ebay hasn't supported a legit 5 figure sale for a Bassman in quite some time, and certainly can't overlook the several that do sell in the 5-8K range.

I think what irks me most about these kinds of dealers is that they are vultures. In the sense that they likely gain a lot of their stock by placing ads in shopper type papers geared to be read by the elderly. They get some poor old lady to dig out their late husband's guitar or amp and as it happens the vulture gives them about a nickel on the dollar of it's actual value. Then they have the gall to price these things over book value waiting for the one sucker. They can afford the time to wait because they seldom have serious money in the thing.
I am not generalizing all dealers to be like this of course. But if I were a betting man I'd say without a doubt that this guy with the $16K Bassman (which is really worth about $9K) is probably a man that falls into that class.

[pedenphoto]

This thread started with a question about amp prices on e-bay and elsewhere. Just for fun let's spin it out a bit further. Let's recognize that there are lots of alternatives for todays players when it comes to amps of the classic tube type. Boutique alternatives, major companies reissues and rebuilt originals to modified for collecting. So we are talking about amp collecting as a pursuit in itself. You may play them or just look at them, that's your business, but I think we can agree that amp collecting is a pursuit in itself so I will ask a question. Can you name 4 Fender amps and a realistic price in today's market. Lets keep it to pre CBS Fenders that are likely to come on the market (no Champion 800s and wooden Pros) that there would be a ready pool of buyers for. Lets say they are in B+ to A- condition because we know really clean tweed is a category (and price) unto itself. To get the ball rolling, here are my 4 amps: wooden Deluxe model 26 $3700.00, 5E3 Tweed Deluxe $2700.00, 6G16 Brown Vibroverb $8000.00, Blackface Princeton Reverb $2400.00 Anybody got any other ideas ? Peden
Keep it light this is for fun!!

[Wardpike]

Other ideas? Yes, the vintage market is, in my opinion, about to start crashing. The "luxury" markets are about to start to take a tumble as investments in general become more focused on securities as the economy destabilizes. THis is a natural occurrence every 12 years. If you watch the cycles, you'll see what happens and you'll ride the waves accordingly and purchase when the markets are soft.

The mid-point of this particular economic downturn was forecast at 2012, but we are way ahead of the game because of mid-east happenings, mismanagement, corporate malfeasance and deficit financing.

You want to see a $5000 '59 Fender Bassman? Hold your horses. They'll be around within 3 years. Thanks to voodoo economic elephantitus.

I'm waiting for the bottom, you'll be able to tell when sotheby's and other art auctions stop hitting record prices and the big items being offered for sale are suspended. Then it's a trickle down effect to all other luxury markets, including collectors of instruments and furnishings, coins and stamps etc.

Ward

[65flh5326]

Do people still use 50 year old power tools ?

Yes, I do, this lathe is 57yrs old and been in constant service since new. Originally used at Hanford nuclear energy works. Now punching out a Harley cylinder in my workshop, and these machines use vacuum tubes for speed control, very expensive tubes.
Here is the secrete for long life on vintage electronics, "use a cooling fan", its heat that kills components. Found that out long ago, the hard way.
http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u...nderboring.jpg

Thanks,
Don