Used amp market

[biker joe]

Just got the new Vintage Guitar in which there is an article talking about how the vintage amp market is undervalued yet has still not seen a decline as the economy has slowed. Based off of a number of recent ebay auctions, I'm not sure that I'm inclined to agree:

A mint 57 deluxe reissue selling at $1000!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=008

A brown concert for under $1200
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=024

A 64 princeton reverb for $750!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010

A Brown Princeton for $810
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006!

A 64 Super Reverb for $1095!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=011

This one blows my mind, a vicy bassman for 1K!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=015

I'm surprised at how low some of these are going for. I wouldn't want to sell anything on ebay right now!

[boris bubbanov]

I wonder if the editors and writers in the Vintage Amp magazine business are heavily invested in these amps and are unprepared for the possibility demand is down and going down. Because that means their readership level is at stake and their amp-401K is at jeopardy at the same time.

I've talked privately to a lot more folks lately who are "thinking about selling" for the first time in a long time.

I got a real sweet 65 Twin Reverb reissue for $ 800 + tax at GC recently, just the tiniest tear on one corner. Late 2004 build. Yeah, things are a little soft.

[chet]

People are getting laid off and losing thier homes. Add to that the fact that gas keeps going up and people need to buy it to get around like they're used to doing. It's no wonder that it's becoming a buyers market.

I can't believe how people keep thier SUV's with gas being like it is.

[biker joe]

Yet even with the "soft" market there are still a few hopeful holdouts. This guy is threatening to end the auction early if he doesn't get the price he wants.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010

I saw a brown super in my local guitar center 6 months ago for 1800. It sat there for more than a month and seemed to me like a bargain at the time. This guy is going to pull his auction if he can't get a bidding war going between two people at a minimum of 2K. He is already $200 over Guitar Center's inflated vintage price from before the economic pooh hit the fan! Geeez!

[skeksis]

seems like a lot in common w/ the housing market... including a lot of regional variation. Sellers are still asking 'peak' prices, but they don't sell. The same stuff, some of it pretty darn nice, just sits on the local craigslist because sellers need/want to get a high price out of it. Smaller, name brand amps are still doing well enough, but nothing else seems to be moving. It's no different at local stores... and surprisingly, many aren't willing to negotiate much (if at all -- they're convinced of the value of the piece). Like it or not, ebay (ie "buyers") set the price in this kind of market. I'd bet that international buyers are most of what's keeping vintage gear prices from totally crashing. But however you think about it, I'd agree with the OP that amp prices are stalled if not drifting down recently, but most sellers haven't admitted it yet (and they still think newer used gear is worth roughly the same, if not more than what they paid at GC 4 months ago).

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

I wonder if the editors and writers in the Vintage Amp magazine business are heavily invested in these amps and are unprepared for the possibility demand is down and going down. Because that means their readership level is at stake and their amp-401K is at jeopardy at the same time.

HAHAHA

This is a possibility.

I hate artificial values and the things that can change them... I just want amps that sound good and won't crap out on me :)

[thepassivevoice]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

HAHAHA
I hate artificial values and the things that can change them... I just want amps that sound good and won't crap out on me :)

There are so many good amps now. Less reason to pay premium prices for the old ones.

[4mal]

Originally Posted by chet

I can't believe how people keep thier SUV's with gas being like it is.

yeah, well folks aren't actually lining up to buy those used SUV's either. Some of those folks are basically having to get more thoughtful about their driving habits. Un-American as the thought is...

I dumped one band late last year over the driving - fun times but at some point enough is enough ...

[biker joe]

Originally Posted by thepassivevoice

There are so many good amps now. Less reason to pay premium prices for the old ones.

I still think the old ones are nice but I'm tempted to agree with you. I don't think electronics age as well as guitars. I know a 59 bassman will sound a lot different than the current victoria model, but if I were using the amp on a day to day basis, I would rather have the reliability of the new components. Having the 59 would be a nice showpiece and fun to own a piece of history, but that is an expensive piece of history that might have a lot of corrosion going on in its wires along with a slowly disintegrating tag board.

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

HAHAHA

This is a possibility.

I hate artificial values and the things that can change them... I just want amps that sound good and won't crap out on me :)

On one hand, I agree (I like being able to afford stuff!), but on the other, high values encourage people to preserve and maintain things instead of throwing them out, sort of like with old cars.

Besides, we can always build our own copies for cheap and get 95% of the way there.

- Scott

[e-merlin]

It's called a deadline. Those national magazines have a deadline months ahead of them showing up on the news stand. They are anything but current.

[Dennis68]

I agree that the guides are, well, just that - guides. They're not bibles and there is no hard and fast rule of what a amp or guitar will actually sell for.

Everyone's financial situation can be different. Sellers may really need to raise cash, so they'll be willing to take less alot of time just to sell. Buyers may have extra cash and cause those price supports you mentioned.

[mr_hankey]

Originally Posted by biker joe

A brown concert for under $1200
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=024
Non-original output transformer.
A 64 princeton reverb for $750!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010
Non-original power transformer.
A Brown Princeton for $810
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=006!
Non-original power transformer.
A 64 Super Reverb for $1095!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=011
Non-original speakers.

There you've got your reasons for the low prices.

[Dennis68]

Originally Posted by mr_hankey

There you've got your reasons for the low prices.

Excellent point. Non-originalality is a huge factor of valuation for Vintage amps. Maybe less for those not looking at them as collectors, but a huge issue for those who are Collectors.

[3 Chord]

Average joes on the most part are not picking up mint original 57 Chevys or mint 59 Les Pauls. Old is good but lets be realistic, if you can play, any decent amp will do.

We all have different priorities and disposible income levels, someone will always be able to afford what ever the going price is and some of us will wish they had the funds for cool old stuff but will have to be satisfied with the gear we have.

But todays gears is quite nice. Also there are a few RI amps being made for the average joe that wants a close replica that they can afford and they sound pretty decent.

p.s. my ex-66 Vibrolux didn't sound much better than my classic 30 to my ears. Since I am not a collector, I have better things to spend my money on.

[G-P]

Ebay is certainly one factor for determining value, but it isn't the only one. Were I in the market looking for a vintage amp I would definitely look at Ebay for an idea of what their market bares. Brick and mortar retail or private party are two other markets where the prices will compete also.

Each has their merits. Ebay would be pretty low on my list of buying options simply because of the high potential for fraud. Being able to kick a tire and play your guitar through the prospective purchase is worth a few extra percent purchase price.

Ebay is great for some things. Just not something as unique as a vintage amp.

[Murphy Slaw]

My two gigging amps now are not vintage, but both discontinued.

The 96 Fender Prosonic 2;10 combo is an awesome machine. Mine is perfect, doesn't pop, and will clobber most anything short of a full stack, and still have better tone. Tube rectifier, will do Class A.

The Mesa Blue Angel 1;12 combo is my #1 club rig. I have no idea why this isn't one of the most desired amps in history. Tube rectifier, 3 power tubes choices, single channel, no gain, just volume, bass, middle, high, reverb. Like it should be!

I bet I could buy another set (one of each) for less than a EVH 1/2 stack.

Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahah

Best of luck.

Murph.

[Brian blaut]

ok, its not vintage, but I bought a real nice 90's Peavey classic 50 410 off craigslist for $250. The reverbs not quite plumb, but other than that, its clean and sweet. Two Fifty. Two Freakin Fifty for a 50 watt tube 4x10. And a perfectly decent and respected one at that.

[eugenedunn]

Hey Murphy's Slaw,

Your maniacal laugh:

Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahah

Reminds me of something out of my past..... did you by chance frequent the old CompuServe Anime Forum in the 90's?

[GreenbackJ]

All I can say is, it's a good time for me to be single, 27, and have extra cash. I'm certainly taking advantage of the current downswing in the vintage amp market. I'm buying up some old ampeg's as we speak. On the lookout for a Gibson Tweed Falcon, and maybe a 64 princeton.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by Brian blaut

ok, its not vintage, but I bought a real nice 90's Peavey classic 50 410 off craigslist for $250. The reverbs not quite plumb, but other than that, its clean and sweet. Two Fifty. Two Freakin Fifty for a 50 watt tube 4x10. And a perfectly decent and respected one at that.

Ha ha! I saw that one! great job Brian! we should start a weekly 'what i scored on craigslist! thread'

Greenback, you've got the right idea!

[Steve327]

eBay is in general the meter stick of the marketplace. That is IF your willing to do internet commerce. Wisdom is knowing who your dealing with be it ebay or brick and mortar places which have web sites that sell that way. The storefront places are typically always going to be higher in price because quite often the goods on sale are acquired at a reasonable price. Let's face it, a lot of these gear brokers and dealers advertise wanted ads geared towards those who likely still own some of this gear tucked away in the attic. the elderly. This is beneficial to the vultures because additionally the average 70 year old does not use a computer and therefore does not have that vast resource to determine value accurately. I'm not saying elderly people are all dumb. Indeed there are a lot of savvy old folks who are smart as they come. But there are just as many widows out there with a tweed Bassman or brown Twin or slab board Strat tucked away that have nary a clue as to value. The vulture dealer/broker is kind enough to pay a nickel on the dollar of actual value and as such can afford the luxury of putting an outlandish price on the item and letting it sit.

A few of these items do end up listed on eBay, but I believe it more to be done by a pompous dealer who is really not doing anything more than shouting out "Look what I got!" and sticks a tweed Bassman or Twin on at some silly excessive price. Their position is further obvious when they make pompous remarks to those who offer any degree of criticism.
many vintage shops have some of their gear priced into the stratosphere. Again, if you paid $500 for a 52 Tele I guess you could afford to put it on a pedestal for a good long while insisting it's worth $79K

I don't see the vintage market ever crashing simply because the demand will always be there by the purists. But it does turn stable at times, and on some models even goes down a little.
You also have to take what you see on ebay with a grain of salt whether it's real or not. in the last few months I saw a 59 tweed Vibrolux that was way minty sell for $2300 and 8 weeks later one in pretty much the same condition sell for well over $6,000! Now when the tweed Vibroluxes start bringing more than minty deluxes you have to wonder a little.

Regional shop prices realized are not as accurate a meter stick as ebay. any shop can get lucky enough on occasion to have a deep pocket, low brain buyer come in and overpay for something, but it doesn't happen consistently enough to establish market value to any accurate degree.

The super rare stuff (i.e. tweed big box twins, Vibroverbs, 58-60 LP standards, etc) are never going to nose dive. Assuming your not using the guy with the LP asking $480,000 as an accurate representation of value.

[KC]

my craigslist score 'o the year (so far) is a 1964ish Ampeg Gemini VI for $200, cosmetically trashed but mechanically sound, new JJ 7091s, too. sounds fantastique!

$200! a single trip to the ATM!