brainstorming (suggestions needed)

[skeksis]

Sorry for the long post, just trying to put the relevant info out there.

Last night I was switching between my 3 amps: a '66 Princeton Reverb (my first choice, usually), a '63-ish Silvertone 1482 (in the 5E3 vein), and an '64 or so Airline 9015A (20+ watts, 2x12", 2x6L6 but low voltages & small transformers).

Used my Harmony-made '64 Silvertone 3-pickup semi-hollow w/ bigsby.

Note that I've been shopping for a large-gig amp... I love the Airline and Silvertone for what they are, but I don't trust 'em to gig w/ and haven't ever converted them to a 3-prong grounded cord. Currently I use the PR for most everything outside my home.

What really jumped out at me was how UNFORGIVING the PR is! what I mean is that it sounds fantastic when 1) you're guitar is perfectly in tune, 2) guitar is perfectly set up, 3) volume/tone settings just right on guitar and amp, and 4) when you hit every note flawlessly. But if any of those drift a hair from ideal, the PR seems to exaggerate the problem. The payoff is there -- it's better than my other amps -- if everything is just right.

Alternately, I could get really good results in the silvertone and airline even when the stars didn't align perfectly.

Anyone else noticed this? I can see how the super clean BF/SF circuits get a reputation for being unforgiving.

My question is: what are some "more forgiving" amps? I would guess that earlier, less 'clean' circuits would fit that (tweeds?) but where would amps like the Blues Jr or AC30CC come down? What's a good, well built, mid-to-large combo that's a little less finicky? (I've been looking for a vibrolux reverb, but starting to wonder if there's other options I should consider, probably not a bf/sf fender?).

[Billm]

I play like crap and my Blues Juniors never give me a hard time about it. :)

The BJr can get close to a blackface tone, but it falls on the tweed side of the house. If you need more power than that (doesn't sound like it, if you're using a PR), the Blues Deluxe is like a BJr on steroids. The Hot Rod Deluxe has a big, warm clean tone that has helped make it the most popular tube amp. And it can blow the dust off your ceiling fan if you crank it.

[JohnnyCrash]

Princetons and other "cleaner" amps are less forgiving, and it only really bugs me when intonation on the guitar is off! Otherwise, I often REALLY need that "unforgiving" clarity for some stuff I record.

As far as "less forgiving" - you may get a backlassh by some of the more snobby guys here, so be careful :)

The Montogomery Ward/Airline is likely getting you about 25 watts with a very tweed topology. So the wattage of this compared to your Prince isn't really fair as the Airline will be much warmer and edgier... regardless, I'd still stick with the "low-watt's low-watt" idea of the Airline and go for an earlier 2x6L6 tweed style amp... some folks make those or offer kits...

Perhaps a Lil Dawg 6L6 modded 5E3, but again, the early tweed circuits got dirty/warm all over the place, so see if you can talk to a 6L6/5E3 owner before committing.

Sounds like you want the right mix of warmth (more forgiving), with the right amount of headroom (to still get you some cleans at gigging volumes)... may be hard to pull off.

[skeksis]

thx for the thoughtful responses. yep, side-by-side, the 12-15w PR with 1x10" good speaker (C10N type) has a fair bit more clean headroom than the 20-25w Airline with 2x12" inefficient alnicos. it defies common sense when they're side-by-side... but that's it. WARMTH :-) yeah, I think that's what I'm looking for.

the intonation/tuning on my old guitar isn't bad, but that's in the context of an uncompensated saddle and a bigsby on 24" scale neck... I have to tweak the tuning a hair to get good results, but when things are a smidge off, it really jumps out with the PR

SO, a tweed-leaning circuit creeping up into >30w territory is probably closer to getting me there. wonder if I could get my hands on a tweed pro or super kit? or clone? I'm a little partial to 10's, but not for any reason I can explain. hmmm...

[4 Strings]

I both agree and disagree with Billm and JC.

Though a 5E3 (the Tweed circuit with which I have the most experience) can be forgiving when turned up into OD territory, I find mine to be very revealing when playing my equally unforgiving esquire/parts-squire. The neck of the guitar has rather beefy frets, and if I grip the strings too hard when playing chords, thus bending the strings down to the fret board, the height of the frets make the strings bend out of tune.
The 5E3 certainly doesn't let that pass unnoticed. Especially not when recording. It is a sobering experience for sure, guess I'll have to practise some more.

So I've noticed there is definitely a difference between playing a fat string bass with tiny frets - my main instrument - and playing a guitar with comparatively puny 0,11 strings and beefy frets...

My experience is that this only applies for chording. When playing more solo:ish bluesy stuff there is so much bending going on that you use your ears to determine the right pitch rather than the frets.

Now I hope this doesn't put me in the "more snobby guys here, so be careful" cathegory. Forgive me JC!

On the other hand, I cannot think of a more unforgiving amp than the 5E3 when it comes to getting a wonderful tone. Give any monkey at your local zoo a tele, an instrument cable and a 5E3 and I bet my bottom dollar he'd be able squeeze some sweet tones out of the stuff at his very first try!

[Wally]

Since JC hinted at it...here goes. Bad intonation is evident no matter what amp one is playing through. If you are into the realm of distortion and two notes are out of tune to each other and 'beating' against each other hard, things are really sour. Some ears may hear this as 'od' or righteous distortion...some others hear it as an out-of-tune guitar being played with a lot of distortion. At any time, a guitar that plays in tune will create more musical harmonics than a guitar that doesn't play in tune...and that is where distortion lives...in the harmonics. Distort a note that is out of tune with other notes and the out-of-tune harmonics will be righteously sour. Sometimes that works if you are going for that garage-band, low-fi, 'cheap' guitar sound. Sometimes we like that sound. However, from my perspective,
this appeal for less than correct harmonic structure does not negate the fact that an amp dosen't hide the imperfections. An amp merely amplifies what comes in the input....out of tune is out of tune, in tune is in tune. No amp in good working order will change that. An amp in poor working condition will create some out-of-tune harmonics that an experienced ear can hear.
Snobby....naw. LIstening with open ears...yeah.

[JohnnyCrash]

I actually have more problems with poor intonation when playing distorted. I was merely discussing my issues with amps that "don't hide" anything in general.

As far as the original question, I think the imperfections are more likely a discussion on left hand technique, right hand slop/noise in picking, and pick dynamics, etc.

In most cases cleaner amps will let more of poor technique out of the speakers... whereas warmer or even overdriven amps will hide some aspects of playing. Intonation is obviosuly apparent regardless.

This is why I mentioned warmer amps - I was just trying to give $0.02 in response to a question ASKED.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by 4 Strings

Now I hope this doesn't put me in the "more snobby guys here, so be careful" cathegory. Forgive me JC!

HAHA

Nah, discussion always involved healthy, peaceful debate... but I know how picky/snobby all of us guitar players can get... then the arguments and pointless pride escalates things further.

After seeing how upset folks usually get with a question that is about "unforgiving amps," I just don't like the idea of someone asking advice and possibly getting attacked as a result... the usual result is an attack on the poor guys' technique... which is funny to me because guitar playing is not an exact science and technique in our favorite tunes is never perfect.

Long story short, I was trying to offer adice to the original question and minimize any possible arguments from the less tolerant among us. If you can't tell, I'm a little gun shy after some rashes of hostility and continued dogmatic responses to every single post...

[Wally]

Skeksis wrote: "What really jumped out at me was how UNFORGIVING the PR is! what I mean is that it sounds fantastic when 1) you're guitar is perfectly in tune, 2) guitar is perfectly set up, 3) volume/tone settings just right on guitar and amp, and 4) when you hit every note flawlessly."
Well, I did focus on the tuning/harmonics issue. I agree with you Johnny that playing technique problems mght be more glaring when amplified through clean, 'cooler' sounding amps than through warm, overdriven amps.
Tempo problems are covered up when the note is compressed and sustaining, also. I have heard players that could make you think that were fair players when they were playing through a distortion pedal. Punch the distortion off, and their playing is revealed to be sloppy, out-of-tempo....less than musical.

[skeksis]

Ummm... I guess my original point was that all else being equal (quirky guitar, my questionable technique, etc) I DO hear a difference in how the 3 above-listed amps respond to 'adverse' conditions. It's not even that subtle, really. Refined question being: what are the amp-related variables that contribute to the accentuation/attenuation of the best & worst I get from the guitar. We're kinda getting there :-) deviations from original topic are fine by me, that's healthy dialogue.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by skeksis

Ummm... I guess my original point was that all else being equal (quirky guitar, my questionable technique, etc) I DO hear a difference in how the 3 above-listed amps respond to 'adverse' conditions. It's not even that subtle, really. Refined question being: what are the amp-related variables that contribute to the accentuation/attenuation of the best & worst I get from the guitar. We're kinda getting there :-) deviations from original topic are fine by me, that's healthy dialogue.

In order to address your question, I would have to understand what your perceptions are....what 'adverse conditions' in paraticular. Otherwise, I might just go off track again.
Your 'lo-fi' amps have a softer pick attack response compared to the PR.
The notes hit more softly, bloom more slowly and sustain longer. This can 'cover up' some problems in your right hand tehcnique. Some people don't care for immediate, sharp and clear note definition and are thrown by this type of sound. It demands control and accuracy in the picking technique.
The lo-fi amps' sustain also can obscure the lack of creation of sustain by the fretting fingers. Some players develop wonderful tone and sustain in their fingers...through their ears of course. The rest of us struggle.
These aspects of playing are what leads many folks to claim that 'it is all in the fingers'....and there is a great amount of truth in that observation. Fingers, ears, mind, guitar, amp....takes it all.
I once owned a Les Paul REcording guitar. I have never played a more 'accurate' guitar. Whatever the fingers did would be transmitted to the amp and one would definitely hear it. SCary! Some folks would never attempt to play one of these more than once. If you have ever listened to Les Paul, you will understand the accuracy that Mr. Paul developed in his playing. And, no, I am not that good!
Johnny Crash and I have both pointed out tuning problems and how we 'hear' those. IT seems that we both agree that out-of-tune is out-of-tune and nothing hides it.
Now, where is the caviar and champagne. I think I'll bang a bit of blues out on the Steinway whilst awaiting the limousine. Everytime I hit a big hard Gm chord on this piano, that darned crystal chandelier rattles 11 cents sharp to a Bb. Emily, fetch me the shotgun, please.

[gpower]

If you like the PR but want something a little dirtier, I'd take a real good look at the DRRI. If you're not completely stuck on it being Fender, and are looking for a warmer tone, then the Traynor YCV-20WR is a great little amp.

[4 Strings]

Originally Posted by 4 Strings

On the other hand, I cannot think of a more unforgiving amp than the 5E3 when it comes to getting a wonderful tone.

"Forgiving" was what I meant, of course. It was late night over here when I wrote it...

"If you can't tell, I'm a little gun shy after some rashes of hostility and continued dogmatic responses to every single post..."

Yeah, I see. Good to see you back here JC!