What is a 5E3 supposed to sound like; because....?

giogolf · May 5th, 2008, 09:41 AM

Hey all,
As most of you all saw in my other thread "Speakers for a 5e3", I was getting a Lil'Dawg Deluxe. Well its here and she is oh so pretty. But, I am a bit confused with her sound...

I plugged her into the only speaker that would support her power (that I have), a 1990 Fender special design (I believe emenince) 100 Watt I had laying around. If you remember from the last thread my Lil'Dawg Deluxe was 35 watts do to the larger tranny Jim put in for me, thats why the high power speaker. Ok so, I was messing around playing some Zeppelin riffs, and for the life of me of me I could not brighten her up. I am playing a MIA Tele Standard straight into the bright channel 1. The amp sounds like if you where to use your neck pickup, and turn the tone knob all the way down, cutting out the highs. I thought these amps could be ice picks. Am I missing some thing? Oh, and the bass, just crazy, you could probably play a bass through this thing.
FYI: I am using these tube: RCA 5U4G, 2
Sylvania 6L6WGB/5881, 1 GE 12AX7, and 1 NOS GE 12AY7

Your input is much appreciated...

4 Strings · May 5th, 2008, 09:55 AM

I have a 5E3 with standard OT, 5Y3GT recto and 6V6’s. It is rather bass heavy and it does not get ice picky Albert Collins style. But it can definitely get trebly if I turn the tone up on both my amp and my guitar.
I ain’t tried any of Jim’s amps so I don’t know about them, but it sounds strange that you shouldn’t be able to make it sound brighter than what you describe. Have you e-mailed Jim back?

giogolf · May 5th, 2008, 10:04 AM

Well before I bug Jim, I wanna see what sounds you guys are getting. FYI: I am plugged into bright channel 1, with tone on 7 and volume at 4, and normal volume on 1. When I turn the tone up its only seems to add gain with just a touch of treble. It just seems that the amp is pushing more Mids and Bass.

tele-martini · May 5th, 2008, 10:45 AM

My DIY 5E3 clone had an Emenince "made for Fender" 50w spkr. in it when I first built it. Yeah you could play a bass thru it as it was very bass heavy. Still sounded great though. Now I have a Jensen C12N in it and it's not quite as bass heavy and not quite as loud but still maintains the deep lush tones when played at lower volumes. Breaks up a little sooner with the Jensen spkr. being a 25w .

woodman · May 5th, 2008, 10:46 AM

is there another speaker you can try it with? the sound you describe (muffled and dull) doesn't sound right for a 5E3, especially if you're using the bright channel.

Jim L · May 5th, 2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giogolf

Well before I bug Jim, I wanna see what sounds you guys are getting. FYI: I am plugged into bright channel 1, with tone on 7 and volume at 4, and normal volume on 1. When I turn the tone up its only seems to add gain with just a touch of treble. It just seems that the amp is pushing more Mids and Bass.

An uninformed idea, but... doesn't the vol control of the unused channel interact with the tone/headroom/volume to some degree with the 5e3 design? Could it be related to that at all??

giogolf · May 5th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodman

is there another speaker you can try it with? the sound you describe (muffled and dull) doesn't sound right for a 5E3, especially if you're using the bright channel.

I don't have another speaker yet, but I am going to buy a Cannabis Rex. Muffled is definitely the way to describe it. I tried the same speaker with my Princeton, and it sounds fine.

The sound I am getting does not cut, although loud and bass-ey, it just doesn't project.

JohnnyCrash · May 5th, 2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodman

is there another speaker you can try it with? the sound you describe (muffled and dull) doesn't sound right for a 5E3, especially if you're using the bright channel.

+1

1. Jim may be using an OT that's looking for a different ohm speaker than you're using. Ask Jim what impedance the thing should be running... it may be an impedance mismatch.

2. Check your speaker connection.

The "Bright" channel's (the originals never called it Bright, it was Mic and Instrument) High input should provide plenty of top end.

As you push up the Tone control you do add more gain to the amp, and eventually at higher settings it will almost seem to smash the treble down when it all starts naturally compressing.

While the Volume controls are interactive, having one off or low will not result in the sound you're describing.

How much use has that old 12AY7 seen?

backalleyblues · May 5th, 2008, 11:18 AM

Quintessential 5E3 sound is the lead on "Breakdown" by Tom Petty (guitar was a Broadcaster, no less!) Try turning up the normal volume some, the controls do interact with each other. But it really sounds like the speaker is not the right one for the job-Pyle speakers (which is what Fender used in the 80s and 90s) tend to be kinda flat sounding-works well in certain amps, but it most certainly not a Jensen-style speaker. The cannabis rex will be an improvement, as would almost any Jensen voiced speaker. Just my .02...

Franc Robert
Back Alley Blues Band

giogolf · May 5th, 2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

+1

1. Jim may be using an OT that's looking for a different ohm speaker than you're using. Ask Jim what impedance the thing should be running... it may be an impedance mismatch.

2. Check your speaker connection.

The "Bright" channel's (the originals never called it Bright, it was Mic and Instrument) High input should provide plenty of top end.

As you push up the Tone control you do add more gain to the amp, and eventually at higher settings it will almost seem to smash the treble down when it all starts naturally compressing.

While the Volume controls are interactive, having one off or low will not result in the sound you're describing.

How much use has that old 12AY7 seen?

The amp is set for 8 ohm's, and the Speaker is 100 Watts 8 ohm's.

I played with the controls for about 30 mins, but the only way I could get it bright was with the Bridge pickup.

The 12AY7 was part of the tube set given to me by Jim. I am not sure of its age or use, but he said they where all good. I had a choice between JJ's and the US NOS mix when I bough the chassis.

As for the speaker cord, its a regular 1/4" Instrument cable male, wired with 16 gauge lamp cord.

BrianF · May 5th, 2008, 12:59 PM

The Volume controls on a 5E3 are interactive (a quaint and poorly designed circuit that has become a signature quirky characteristic of 5E3's) Try positioning the UNUSED channnel's Volume control from 8 up to 12 and see what it does to the sound.

Dacious · May 5th, 2008, 08:06 PM

Here's a sound clip off one on another thread.

5E3

If it sounds like this it's good.

It sounds to me like there might be a wiring error on the tone circuit on yours causing the tone to be on '0' which is really treble shut off. Either that or a bad coupling or bypass cap.

zeeman · May 5th, 2008, 09:09 PM

That was my clip, keep in mind I was trying to demo a strange noise on the low E that really didn't come through in the recording. That's why I kept going to the low E and letting it ring. It is an awesome sounding amp though. Deserves a better player but I'll keep it anyway.

giogolf · May 5th, 2008, 10:14 PM

Yeah it does not sound like that clip, much more midy. Did some more tests:
Tried another speaker Celestion still no better.
Tried some other tubes and nothing different.
I also changed the speaker wire to higher grade cable, but still nothing.
It is hard to explain what this thing sounds like. Almost like if you where to turn a wah pedal on and leave it mid way; it has that middy, nasally sound...

chabby · May 5th, 2008, 10:28 PM

I have a 25 watt Lil Dawg and have not experienced what you are at all.
Make sure that 1/4" cable/jack you have is a speaker cable, not a guitar cable. Also I have jj's with mine. Just doesn't sound like a speaker problem if the Princeton is fine with the speaker the 5E3 should be fine too I would think. That said, I've never heard anyone using a 100 watt RMS speaker with a 5E3 before. I'm baffled and don't even think you have a speaker problem since the princeton works. My guess is you have bad tubes.

robt57 · May 5th, 2008, 10:29 PM

Stupid question; have you tried it in different rooms or environments. And off the floor and/or with a wall or reflective surface behind it etc. ??
Not backed up against anything...

sjhusting · May 6th, 2008, 01:12 AM

Don't change anything until you use a different speaker. That's not a good choice for a 5e3. Try to find a Jensen P12N or similar Alnico, and go from there.

steven

giogolf · May 6th, 2008, 08:43 AM

I am testing the amp in my living room; ie: hardwood floors, and 8 foot ceilings. I don't know if I wanna spend the money on a new speaker if there maybe something wrong with my amp. I understand the speaker will make a difference in the sound, but if this speaker sounds good with all my other amps, it at leaset needs to be passable with my 5e3.

Last night I tried a 12at7 instead of of the 12ay7, and also used a better speaker wire; still no good. If I play open chords, it sounds super washy.

giogolf · May 6th, 2008, 08:50 AM

Will changing the power tubes contribute to tone at all? I do have a set of ARS 6l6's I can use try. What do you think?

Hoodster · May 6th, 2008, 09:20 AM

Sounds to me like you have just discovered the Tweed sound and don't like it. Same thing happened to me when I bought a Lil Dawg Champster Special--tried tons of tubes, speakers, etc., and just couldn't get any kind of sparkle. Turns out I'm just a Blackface guy, duh.

BrianF · May 6th, 2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoodster

Sounds to me like you have just discovered the Tweed sound and don't like it. Same thing happened to me when I bought a Lil Dawg Champster Special--tried tons of tubes, speakers, etc., and just couldn't get any kind of sparkle. Turns out I'm just a Blackface guy, duh.

Blackface amps have that 'scooped-mids' tonestack circuit that give it that characteristic tone sparkle. It isnt there on a Tweed Deluxe. With an EQ pedal in front of the Tweed Deluxe you can approximate that tone though.

milocj · May 6th, 2008, 09:29 AM

Here is a link to a thread with some sound clips from my 5E3 build. There are two or three different links to the sound clips within the thread. Some of them have reverb and vibrato on them but there is also some straight up. They're all recorded with a Telecaster and recorded with a microphone in front of the speaker with no extra eq or added tweaking. I have 6V6s in mine and a Weber alnico Blue Dog.

If yours doesn't sound like this or the earlier clip you may have something wrong.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-centr...und-clips.html

bradpdx · May 6th, 2008, 12:03 PM

I confess to being a Blackface guy - I never did warm up to my old tweeds and sold them. It isn't for everybody, and depends largely upon what you have in mind as your sound.

I used to have a 1960 Vibrolux and was very frustrated with the single tone control at the time. I used to run it with an Alembic F2B preamp (essentially a BF Fender front end) to get the EQ I craved. Worked great, but at that point I might as well 'fess up and use a Princeton.

giogolf · May 6th, 2008, 01:39 PM

I don't know what I am going to do. It does not sound like the clips I heard posted above.

bazooka47 · May 6th, 2008, 01:53 PM

I recently took delivery of a 25 watt D-Lux by Lil' Dawg. I think it is the speaker you are using. I have tried the C12N RI and it was too dark for my tastes. Next, a reconed P12R- brighter, but just didn't sound that good. Finally bought the 30-watt version of Weber's 12A125 (8 ohm, light dope). That speaker sounds good, and is plenty bright.

To me, tweed Deluxe 'bright' is not the same as blackface or silverface 'bright'.

May 5th, 2008, 09:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	What is a 5E3 supposed to sound like; because....? Hey all, As most of you all saw in my other thread "Speakers for a 5e3", I was getting a Lil'Dawg Deluxe. Well its here and she is oh so pretty. But, I am a bit confused with her sound... I plugged her into the only speaker that would support her power (that I have), a 1990 Fender special design (I believe emenince) 100 Watt I had laying around. If you remember from the last thread my Lil'Dawg Deluxe was 35 watts do to the larger tranny Jim put in for me, thats why the high power speaker. Ok so, I was messing around playing some Zeppelin riffs, and for the life of me of me I could not brighten her up. I am playing a MIA Tele Standard straight into the bright channel 1. The amp sounds like if you where to use your neck pickup, and turn the tone knob all the way down, cutting out the highs. I thought these amps could be ice picks. Am I missing some thing? Oh, and the bass, just crazy, you could probably play a bass through this thing. FYI: I am using these tube: RCA 5U4G, 2 Sylvania 6L6WGB/5881, 1 GE 12AX7, and 1 NOS GE 12AY7 Your input is much appreciated...

May 5th, 2008, 09:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
4 Strings Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Gossip County Posts: 198	I have a 5E3 with standard OT, 5Y3GT recto and 6V6’s. It is rather bass heavy and it does not get ice picky Albert Collins style. But it can definitely get trebly if I turn the tone up on both my amp and my guitar. I ain’t tried any of Jim’s amps so I don’t know about them, but it sounds strange that you shouldn’t be able to make it sound brighter than what you describe. Have you e-mailed Jim back? __________________ We shall not cease from modifying our amps. And the end of all our modifying will be to arrive where we started and know the circuit for the first time.

May 5th, 2008, 10:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
tele-martini Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hilton, NY Age: 48 Posts: 851 11 Photos	My DIY 5E3 clone had an Emenince "made for Fender" 50w spkr. in it when I first built it. Yeah you could play a bass thru it as it was very bass heavy. Still sounded great though. Now I have a Jensen C12N in it and it's not quite as bass heavy and not quite as loud but still maintains the deep lush tones when played at lower volumes. Breaks up a little sooner with the Jensen spkr. being a 25w . __________________ Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, except, possibly, two. ...Frederic Chopin

May 5th, 2008, 10:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,193	is there another speaker you can try it with? the sound you describe (muffled and dull) doesn't sound right for a 5E3, especially if you're using the bright channel. __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

May 5th, 2008, 11:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
backalleyblues Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay, FL, USA Age: 45 Posts: 227	Quintessential 5E3 sound is the lead on "Breakdown" by Tom Petty (guitar was a Broadcaster, no less!) Try turning up the normal volume some, the controls do interact with each other. But it really sounds like the speaker is not the right one for the job-Pyle speakers (which is what Fender used in the 80s and 90s) tend to be kinda flat sounding-works well in certain amps, but it most certainly not a Jensen-style speaker. The cannabis rex will be an improvement, as would almost any Jensen voiced speaker. Just my .02... Franc Robert Back Alley Blues Band __________________ www.backalleybluesband.com "It don't mean a thang if it ain't got that TWANG!!"

May 5th, 2008, 10:04 AM	#3 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	Well before I bug Jim, I wanna see what sounds you guys are getting. FYI: I am plugged into bright channel 1, with tone on 7 and volume at 4, and normal volume on 1. When I turn the tone up its only seems to add gain with just a touch of treble. It just seems that the amp is pushing more Mids and Bass.

May 5th, 2008, 12:59 PM	#11 (permalink)
BrianF Friend of Leo's Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Carlsbad, Ca Posts: 2,077 7 Photos	The Volume controls on a 5E3 are interactive (a quaint and poorly designed circuit that has become a signature quirky characteristic of 5E3's) Try positioning the UNUSED channnel's Volume control from 8 up to 12 and see what it does to the sound.

May 5th, 2008, 08:06 PM	#12 (permalink)
Dacious Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Godzone Posts: 2,601 35 Photos	Here's a sound clip off one on another thread. 5E3 If it sounds like this it's good. It sounds to me like there might be a wiring error on the tone circuit on yours causing the tone to be on '0' which is really treble shut off. Either that or a bad coupling or bypass cap. __________________ My other Telecaster is a Thinline The Tele Bible, Ch 1, v 10 Love thy Telecaster, covet not thy neighbour's Strat!

May 5th, 2008, 09:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
zeeman Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 301 5 Photos	That was my clip, keep in mind I was trying to demo a strange noise on the low E that really didn't come through in the recording. That's why I kept going to the low E and letting it ring. It is an awesome sounding amp though. Deserves a better player but I'll keep it anyway.

May 5th, 2008, 10:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	Yeah it does not sound like that clip, much more midy. Did some more tests: Tried another speaker Celestion still no better. Tried some other tubes and nothing different. I also changed the speaker wire to higher grade cable, but still nothing. It is hard to explain what this thing sounds like. Almost like if you where to turn a wah pedal on and leave it mid way; it has that middy, nasally sound...

May 5th, 2008, 10:28 PM	#15 (permalink)
chabby Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,100	I have a 25 watt Lil Dawg and have not experienced what you are at all. Make sure that 1/4" cable/jack you have is a speaker cable, not a guitar cable. Also I have jj's with mine. Just doesn't sound like a speaker problem if the Princeton is fine with the speaker the 5E3 should be fine too I would think. That said, I've never heard anyone using a 100 watt RMS speaker with a 5E3 before. I'm baffled and don't even think you have a speaker problem since the princeton works. My guess is you have bad tubes.

May 5th, 2008, 10:29 PM	#16 (permalink)
robt57 Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Lost Yankee in Nashville Age: 51 Posts: 1,741	Stupid question; have you tried it in different rooms or environments. And off the floor and/or with a wall or reflective surface behind it etc. ?? Not backed up against anything... __________________

May 6th, 2008, 01:12 AM	#17 (permalink)
sjhusting Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 477 11 Photos	Don't change anything until you use a different speaker. That's not a good choice for a 5e3. Try to find a Jensen P12N or similar Alnico, and go from there. steven

May 6th, 2008, 08:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	I am testing the amp in my living room; ie: hardwood floors, and 8 foot ceilings. I don't know if I wanna spend the money on a new speaker if there maybe something wrong with my amp. I understand the speaker will make a difference in the sound, but if this speaker sounds good with all my other amps, it at leaset needs to be passable with my 5e3. Last night I tried a 12at7 instead of of the 12ay7, and also used a better speaker wire; still no good. If I play open chords, it sounds super washy.

May 6th, 2008, 08:50 AM	#19 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	Will changing the power tubes contribute to tone at all? I do have a set of ARS 6l6's I can use try. What do you think?

May 6th, 2008, 09:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
Hoodster Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 257	Sounds to me like you have just discovered the Tweed sound and don't like it. Same thing happened to me when I bought a Lil Dawg Champster Special--tried tons of tubes, speakers, etc., and just couldn't get any kind of sparkle. Turns out I'm just a Blackface guy, duh.

May 6th, 2008, 09:29 AM	#22 (permalink)
milocj Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 219 3 Photos	Here is a link to a thread with some sound clips from my 5E3 build. There are two or three different links to the sound clips within the thread. Some of them have reverb and vibrato on them but there is also some straight up. They're all recorded with a Telecaster and recorded with a microphone in front of the speaker with no extra eq or added tweaking. I have 6V6s in mine and a Weber alnico Blue Dog. If yours doesn't sound like this or the earlier clip you may have something wrong. http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-centr...und-clips.html

May 6th, 2008, 12:03 PM	#23 (permalink)
bradpdx Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Portland, OR Age: 49 Posts: 549	I confess to being a Blackface guy - I never did warm up to my old tweeds and sold them. It isn't for everybody, and depends largely upon what you have in mind as your sound. I used to have a 1960 Vibrolux and was very frustrated with the single tone control at the time. I used to run it with an Alembic F2B preamp (essentially a BF Fender front end) to get the EQ I craved. Worked great, but at that point I might as well 'fess up and use a Princeton. __________________ ---------- Tech Geek and Sensitive Artiste String bender ordinare!

May 6th, 2008, 01:39 PM	#24 (permalink)
giogolf Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NJ Posts: 182	I don't know what I am going to do. It does not sound like the clips I heard posted above.

May 6th, 2008, 01:53 PM	#25 (permalink)
bazooka47 Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 116	I recently took delivery of a 25 watt D-Lux by Lil' Dawg. I think it is the speaker you are using. I have tried the C12N RI and it was too dark for my tastes. Next, a reconed P12R- brighter, but just didn't sound that good. Finally bought the 30-watt version of Weber's 12A125 (8 ohm, light dope). That speaker sounds good, and is plenty bright. To me, tweed Deluxe 'bright' is not the same as blackface or silverface 'bright'.

May 6th, 2008, 02:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
BrianF Friend of Leo's Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Carlsbad, Ca Posts: 2,077 7 Photos