6G2 Brown Princeton poll

Guitarslinger1 · April 9th, 2008, 10:40 PM

I recently purchased this excellent 1963 brown Princeton from "Sidney Vicious". I want to thank him again for the nice deal on this sweet amp, and the excellent packing job.

It had a few problems, but I've gotten them taken care of.

I have seen posts from at least one other member who owns a brown Princeton, and I'm guessing there are more.

Anyway, I want to take a poll of what mods you have done on yours or for others. And feel free to post any other thoughts on these amps.

From research, it sounds like the schematic values of the filter cap can of 30/30/30, may never have actually been used at all, as the 20/20/20 seems to have been the norm. This makes sense, because if any of you have ever heard a Fender circuit with that large of value of preamp filtering of 30uF for just 3 triodes, you know it sounds pretty "interesting". I did a 6G2 build in the past, using the schematic values, and found out the hard way that I did not care for it to say the least.

I changed the filter can on this, along with other work done, and went with 30/20/20. I'm curious what others have found with the values on this model.

Here are the photos. They are all "Sidney Vicious's" photos, except for the last one that I took while working on it.

continued

Guitarslinger1 · April 9th, 2008, 10:41 PM

Found one of the 100K plate resistors on V1 had drifted to 550K. Also removed a 33k resistor hidden under heat-shrink, connected to the grid, pin 2 of the V1 socket.

Removed the unnecessary 470 ohm screen resistors.

continued

Guitarslinger1 · April 9th, 2008, 10:42 PM

Along with the general maintenance, I installed 1 watters for the V1 plates, and replaced the orange drops.

This thing sounds VERY tasty now. You can bet I won't ever be letting this one go.

amp boy · April 9th, 2008, 10:44 PM

Scott S · April 9th, 2008, 10:47 PM

I don't own a brown Princeton, but I offer to buy my friend's every time I play through it. Just an amazing-sounding amp that will make any guitar plugged into it sound good!

I could take a look at the filter cap can next time I see it if you're interested. I wonder if Fender had 30/30/30 cap cans in mind when designing the amp, but they subsequently got a good deal on 30/20/20 cap cans.

- Scott

Guitarslinger1 · April 9th, 2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott S

I don't own a brown Princeton, but I offer to buy my friend's every time I play through it. Just an amazing-sounding amp that will make any guitar plugged into it sound good!

I could take a look at the filter cap can next time I see it if you're interested. I wonder if Fender had 30/30/30 cap cans in mind when designing the amp, but they subsequently got a good deal on 30/20/20 cap cans.

- Scott

Please do take a look at his filter can if you get a chance.

This one had a 20/20/20 Astron can in it. From what I have read, that is pretty standard. I think it's more that Leo found that 30/30/30 sounded like donkey doo after the schematic was published, but that's just a guess.

Scott S · April 9th, 2008, 11:22 PM

If nothing else, 30 uF exceeds RCA's recommendation for C1 by 50%!

I'm curious how over-filtering ruins the preamp tone, though -- does it make it too clean-sounding? The hi-fi folks have no reservations about using as much filtering as possible, and Fenders are generally considered to be under-filtered compared to other amps.

- Scott

Guitarslinger1 · April 9th, 2008, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott S

I'm curious how over-filtering ruins the preamp tone, though -- does it make it too clean-sounding? The hi-fi folks have no reservations about using as much filtering as possible, and Fenders are generally considered to be under-filtered compared to other amps.

Trying it in one of your amps would be the best way to find out. It's hard for me to put it accurately into words, but in general it causes a loss of bass, and kind of a flat feeling, that is less responsive. I'm hoping others will have more to add.

In comparison, the 5F6A Bassman has 8uF filtering 4 trodes. And a Deluxe Reverb has 16uF for 5 triodes. (oops, make that 6 triodes)

Sidney Vicious · April 9th, 2008, 11:36 PM

I don't know nothin' about ufs - but NICE amp!

Congrats - and thanks for the update.

JamonHamon · April 9th, 2008, 11:52 PM

I have the new Ampeg J-20 Jet its suppose to sound like a Brown Era Deluxe all I can say is its not going anywhere I will never sell this amp it sounds like a Tweed Deluxe but better it won't fart out at louder volumes

How would you descibe the sound of your Vintage Brown Deluxe

dB · April 9th, 2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialty guitars

God that's sweet.

dB

Guitarslinger1 · April 10th, 2008, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamonHamon

How would you describe the sound of your Vintage Brown Deluxe

Well, with my 57 Strat build, that has Duncan Ant II pickups in it, it sounds too tasty for me to describe. It has a very vocal quality with attitude, and is very dynamic. Makes me sound like I play better than I do. Jimmie Vaughan used one of these amps quite a bit with the old, original Fab T Birds stuff, and with this combination, I can get frighteningly close to nailing those tones.

My main Tele and it are still coming to terms with each other, or maybe I have to come to terms with them. More bright and in your face. A cool tone, just not as magical as with the Strat. So far I have not tried any other guitars with it.

A customer checked it out today and was speechless except to ask "what makes it sound so good?"

JamonHamon · April 10th, 2008, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialty guitars

Well, with my 57 Strat build, that has Duncan Ant II pickups in it, it sounds too tasty for me to describe. It has a very vocal quality with attitude, and is very dynamic. Makes me sound like I play better than I do. Jimmie Vaughan used one of these amps quit a bit with the old, original Fab T Birds stuff, and with this combination, I can get frighteningly close to nailing those tones.

My main Tele and it are still coming to terms with each other, or maybe I have to come to terms with them. More bright and in your face. A cool tone, just not as magical as with the Strat. So far I have not tried any other guitars with it.

A customer checked it out today and was speechless except to ask "what makes it sound so good?"

This sounds like a great sounding amp!!!... but does it have sound quailities of a Tweed Deluxe or ? I'm curious how would you explain the sound

JamonHamon · April 10th, 2008, 12:33 AM

Scroll down to the bottom of this page theres a Allen amp Hot fudge with nuts
does it sound close to this http://myfavoritevideoclips.com/soundclips.html

Guitarslinger1 · April 10th, 2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamonHamon

Scroll down to the bottom of this page theres a Allen amp Hot fudge with nuts
does it sound close to this?

Well, not really. Keep in mind the Allen Hot Fudge With Nuts is based on the Brown Deluxe, which makes it his "modern" take on a different amp.

It really doesn't sound like a tweed Deluxe. They both have the same cathodyne phase inverter. The brown Princeton has one channel and is fixed bias, where the tweed Deluxe has two interactive channels, and is cathode biased.

It's really more related to the 5F10 tweed Harvard, and is really most like the 5F11 tweed Vibrolux.

It kind of has its own "thang" tone wise.

The best way I can think of for you to tell what it sounds like is to listen to the first two Fab T bird albums.

JamonHamon · April 10th, 2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialty guitars

Well, not really. Keep in mind the Allen Hot Fudge With Nuts is based on the Brown Deluxe, which makes it his "modern" take on a different amp.

It really doesn't sound like a tweed Deluxe. They both have the same cathodyne phase inverter. The brown Princeton has one channel and is fixed bias, where the tweed Deluxe has two interactive channels, and is cathode biased.

It's really more related to the 5F10 tweed Harvard, and is really most like the 5F11 tweed Vibrolux.

It kind of has its own "thang" tone wise.

The best way I can think of for you to tell what it sounds like is to listen to the first two Fab T bird albums.

Hey thanks so much...I don't know how but I thought you said Brown Deluxe...Sorry!!!...

peteb · April 10th, 2008, 01:02 AM

"I think it's more that Leo found that 30/30/30 sounded like donkey doo after the schematic was published"

do they sound bad that way?

how does it sound?

I replaced the filter caps on my 6g2 with some bigger caps and I thought it sounded the same.

Guitarslinger1 · April 10th, 2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peteb

do they sound bad that way?

how does it sound?

I replaced the filter caps on my 6g2 with some bigger caps and I thought it sounded the same.

The preamp filter cap is the issue, not the screen and plate/main.

Quote:

Originally Posted by specialty guitars

Trying it in one of your amps would be the best way to find out. It's hard for me to put it accurately into words, but in general it causes a loss of bass, and kind of a flat feeling, that is less responsive. I'm hoping others will have more to add.

In comparison, the 5F6A Bassman has 8uF filtering 4 trodes. And a Deluxe Reverb has 16uF for 5 triodes. (oops, make that 6 triodes)

What values did you change yours to?

jh45gun · April 10th, 2008, 01:19 AM

Very Nice Congrats

Gee · April 10th, 2008, 03:20 AM

That's a beautiful and special amp.

You said "Removed the unnecessary 470 ohm screen resistors." Just curious why you would do that? The 470 screen resistors are a very good thing and especially because the first dropping resistor is only 1K.

I had never noticed the 30x30x30 on the schematic. That must be a mistake or perhaps a design concession to take advantage of a price advantage of using 30x30x30. As the 6G2 is pretty much a lower voltage single channel 5E3, we know that the last 2 work well in the 5e3 at 16uF so I would think 32x16x16 would work well.

EMan · April 10th, 2008, 06:26 AM

Welcome to the club! I've had mine since 1962 .. :-) You can figger out why I still have it. :-)

In any case - no mods to mine, except for the 12" conversion and a adjustable bias supply. I replaced the 30K fixed resistor with a PC mount 20K pot in series with a 16K fixed resistor. It runs with 360V on the plates @ 23mA. Originally, it was 390V @ 16mA.

Tubes are Sovtek LPS in the 1st slot, JJ AX7A in the 2nd, NOS JAN Phillips for outputs, and a NOS JAN Phillips 5Y3GT.

I bought a 20/20/20/20 can cap for it, and I believe I still have the original. Will go check what the original value is, but am pretty sure it was 30/30/30. I'll confirm later.

Great, reliable amp...great tone...and congrats!

maestrovert · April 10th, 2008, 08:09 AM

i have one, bought it new in late '63....it's still bone stock, an' it's absolutely the best sounding guitar amp i've ever heard, bar none.

woodman · April 10th, 2008, 09:03 AM

does the Princeton have the solid state recto that many of the brown amps had?

austintele · April 10th, 2008, 09:09 AM

I had a blackface transitional model(4 white knobs) a while back and it was a great amp. The only mod I did on it was clip off the negitive feedback to get more gain.

Guitarslinger1 · April 10th, 2008, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the posts guys.

Woodman, it takes a 5Y3 rectifier.

It's kind of interesting, the original speaker does not put out much bass at all. But after trying through different speakers, it seems that is part of its charm and clarity. Those bass frequencies are not competing with the rest.

April 9th, 2008, 10:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Guitarslinger1 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 866	6G2 Brown Princeton poll I recently purchased this excellent 1963 brown Princeton from "Sidney Vicious". I want to thank him again for the nice deal on this sweet amp, and the excellent packing job. It had a few problems, but I've gotten them taken care of. I have seen posts from at least one other member who owns a brown Princeton, and I'm guessing there are more. Anyway, I want to take a poll of what mods you have done on yours or for others. And feel free to post any other thoughts on these amps. From research, it sounds like the schematic values of the filter cap can of 30/30/30, may never have actually been used at all, as the 20/20/20 seems to have been the norm. This makes sense, because if any of you have ever heard a Fender circuit with that large of value of preamp filtering of 30uF for just 3 triodes, you know it sounds pretty "interesting". I did a 6G2 build in the past, using the schematic values, and found out the hard way that I did not care for it to say the least. I changed the filter can on this, along with other work done, and went with 30/20/20. I'm curious what others have found with the values on this model. Here are the photos. They are all "Sidney Vicious's" photos, except for the last one that I took while working on it. continued

April 9th, 2008, 10:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
amp boy Tele-Meister Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: toronto, Canada Age: 27 Posts: 330 4 Photos	wow __________________ I'm kinda like class act simplicity with a raw edge that can rip out yer bones.

April 10th, 2008, 08:09 AM	#22 (permalink)
maestrovert Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: West Branch Mi. Posts: 5,828	i have one, bought it new in late '63....it's still bone stock, an' it's absolutely the best sounding guitar amp i've ever heard, bar none. __________________ Sing the Song Bro' Play on Drummer www.godonthe.net

April 10th, 2008, 09:03 AM	#23 (permalink)
woodman Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Mint Hill, NC Age: 62 Posts: 5,193	does the Princeton have the solid state recto that many of the brown amps had? __________________ Truth is stranger than fact ... www.myspace.com/woodymitchellmusic BAND PAGES: www.myspace.com/stragglerswing (Stragglers - Western Swing) www.myspace.com/loafersgloryband (Loafers Glory - '70s country-rock)

April 9th, 2008, 10:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Guitarslinger1 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 866	Found one of the 100K plate resistors on V1 had drifted to 550K. Also removed a 33k resistor hidden under heat-shrink, connected to the grid, pin 2 of the V1 socket. Removed the unnecessary 470 ohm screen resistors. continued

April 9th, 2008, 10:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
Guitarslinger1 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 866	Along with the general maintenance, I installed 1 watters for the V1 plates, and replaced the orange drops. This thing sounds VERY tasty now. You can bet I won't ever be letting this one go.

April 9th, 2008, 10:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 27 Posts: 1,162	I don't own a brown Princeton, but I offer to buy my friend's every time I play through it. Just an amazing-sounding amp that will make any guitar plugged into it sound good! I could take a look at the filter cap can next time I see it if you're interested. I wonder if Fender had 30/30/30 cap cans in mind when designing the amp, but they subsequently got a good deal on 30/20/20 cap cans. - Scott

April 9th, 2008, 11:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Age: 27 Posts: 1,162	If nothing else, 30 uF exceeds RCA's recommendation for C1 by 50%! I'm curious how over-filtering ruins the preamp tone, though -- does it make it too clean-sounding? The hi-fi folks have no reservations about using as much filtering as possible, and Fenders are generally considered to be under-filtered compared to other amps. - Scott

April 9th, 2008, 11:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sidney Vicious Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA Posts: 961 6 Photos	I don't know nothin' about ufs - but NICE amp! Congrats - and thanks for the update.

April 9th, 2008, 11:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
JamonHamon Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,231	I have the new Ampeg J-20 Jet its suppose to sound like a Brown Era Deluxe all I can say is its not going anywhere I will never sell this amp it sounds like a Tweed Deluxe but better it won't fart out at louder volumes How would you descibe the sound of your Vintage Brown Deluxe

April 10th, 2008, 12:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
JamonHamon Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,231	Scroll down to the bottom of this page theres a Allen amp Hot fudge with nuts does it sound close to this http://myfavoritevideoclips.com/soundclips.html

April 10th, 2008, 01:02 AM	#17 (permalink)
peteb Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 219	"I think it's more that Leo found that 30/30/30 sounded like donkey doo after the schematic was published" do they sound bad that way? how does it sound? I replaced the filter caps on my 6g2 with some bigger caps and I thought it sounded the same.

April 10th, 2008, 01:19 AM	#19 (permalink)
jh45gun Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 883	Very Nice Congrats

April 10th, 2008, 03:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
Gee Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 277	That's a beautiful and special amp. You said "Removed the unnecessary 470 ohm screen resistors." Just curious why you would do that? The 470 screen resistors are a very good thing and especially because the first dropping resistor is only 1K. I had never noticed the 30x30x30 on the schematic. That must be a mistake or perhaps a design concession to take advantage of a price advantage of using 30x30x30. As the 6G2 is pretty much a lower voltage single channel 5E3, we know that the last 2 work well in the 5e3 at 16uF so I would think 32x16x16 would work well.

April 10th, 2008, 06:26 AM	#21 (permalink)
EMan Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 939	Welcome to the club! I've had mine since 1962 .. :-) You can figger out why I still have it. :-) In any case - no mods to mine, except for the 12" conversion and a adjustable bias supply. I replaced the 30K fixed resistor with a PC mount 20K pot in series with a 16K fixed resistor. It runs with 360V on the plates @ 23mA. Originally, it was 390V @ 16mA. Tubes are Sovtek LPS in the 1st slot, JJ AX7A in the 2nd, NOS JAN Phillips for outputs, and a NOS JAN Phillips 5Y3GT. I bought a 20/20/20/20 can cap for it, and I believe I still have the original. Will go check what the original value is, but am pretty sure it was 30/30/30. I'll confirm later. Great, reliable amp...great tone...and congrats!

April 10th, 2008, 09:09 AM	#24 (permalink)
austintele Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2004 Location: austin, texas Posts: 1,501	I had a blackface transitional model(4 white knobs) a while back and it was a great amp. The only mod I did on it was clip off the negitive feedback to get more gain.

April 10th, 2008, 10:59 AM	#25 (permalink)
Guitarslinger1 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 866	Thanks for the posts guys. Woodman, it takes a 5Y3 rectifier. It's kind of interesting, the original speaker does not put out much bass at all. But after trying through different speakers, it seems that is part of its charm and clarity. Those bass frequencies are not competing with the rest.