I have become a lower gain kind of guy

TexGoneNW · March 27th, 2008, 10:18 PM

Little by little, it seems I'm tweaking down the gain on my amps with 12AX7's in the preamp stage, opting for 5751 or 12AT7's instead.

Anybody else find themselves easing back on the preamp and letting the power amps take more of the duty?

Del Pickup · March 27th, 2008, 10:58 PM

It's a sure sign of age (oops, sorry I meant maturity!) when you do that! Been a low gain kinda guy myself for several years now and positively cringe at those high gain tones nowadays.

I think lower gain settings are also useful to help you hear more of what you're actually playing and how you're attacking the strings which in turn helps you become a better player. It's a bit like the old adage about any guitarist being able to make a solo sound interesting using a wah pedal but it takes a better player to play the same solo without the wah tone and still make it interesting.

I use 12AY7's in my Bassman and they give a very nice lower gain on that amp. I'll be trying the same with my DRRI when that needs some new preamp tubes.

tazzboy · March 27th, 2008, 11:39 PM

Yeah I doing this to my bassman reissue I put a ECC81 in the V1 spot.

MartyGrant · March 28th, 2008, 01:33 AM

I resonate with what your saying. I use 5751's for similiar reasons. I also dig the lipstick pups I use. I like their smoothness. I use so little gain that I often hit a cord just to check if I'm on clean or not. Maybe an alnico speaker for my HRDX is the next step towards the tone I'm after.

Scott S · March 28th, 2008, 03:00 AM

I've never liked the mushy, high-gain kind of tone. Perhaps it's the contrarian in me, but all of the modern rock with distortion pedals on "stun" has led me to use tones as clean as I can get away with!

eugenedunn · March 28th, 2008, 05:31 AM

Yes! I've really gotten into that practice lately. I have listened to a lot of tubes in different positions lately.

V1 replacements almost always end up being 12AY7's. If there's a reverb section, the V2 (reverb driver) usually ends up being a 12AU7 since that tube and the 12AT7 can take the current in that circuit best. It seems like the Reverb Return and Mix usually stay at a 12AX7 though, as does the PI tube.

And it seems like the V1's end up being RCA's, even though other NOS and UOS tubes are fine also. They just seem to end up being my first choices, sonically.

Telenator · March 28th, 2008, 05:50 AM

Low gain seperates the men from the boys! It's harder to play clean but it cuts through the mix better, has a more articulate sound, and there's no buzz to abuse the audience. I love a slightly raspy, low gain sound.

eugenedunn · March 28th, 2008, 06:20 AM

Hey Marty,

How's the electro-mandolin after the pickup adjustment? And what amp did you end up using for it?

Billm · March 28th, 2008, 09:09 AM

A 5751 or 12AY7 is almost always a better choice than a 12AT7/ECC81. The 12AT7 is a driver tube, not a preamp. It has lower internal impedance, which is good for high-current applications like driving a reverb tank. But the lower impedance also tends to kill of high frequencies.

You may like the mellower sound, but I'd rather shape the highs with my tone controls rather than letting the tubes eat up tone that I'll never get back.

The 12AU7 is also a driver tube, with even lower impedance and lower gain than the 12AT7.

If you want lower gain, look at Leo's old schematics. You'll never see a 12AT7 in the preamp; it was always a 12AY7 for lower gain or a 12AX7 for higher. He knew what he was doing.

marshman · March 28th, 2008, 10:20 AM

I'd always gotten the impression that due the 'attenuation only' nature (I feel there' a term fir this that eludes me) of the cool, vintage-esque tone stacks we old-school types seem to crave, that lower gain V1s were a better choice than using the tone stack--I'd rather have a 12AT7 in V1 and my tonestack nearly dimed than a 7025 in V1 and most of the gain killed in the tonestack.

In theory.

As it applied to my Epi VJr, I definitely preferred the sound of a 12AU7 and the control at 9/10 over a 12AX7 and the control at 4/10. Of course, that amp has no tone stack to speak of, so that theory might not apply.

Headed to a hamfest this weekend, hoping to stock up on AY7s and 5751s, though. A few AT7s, just to be thorough.

ac15 · March 28th, 2008, 10:27 AM

Another advantage of lower gain settings is that you can use chords and voicings that normally sound like dog crap with higher gain settings.

Billm · March 28th, 2008, 10:29 AM

Heh--all Fender tone stacks are attenuation only. Even the three-band tone stack only removes tone, it doesn't boost it. And it removes a lot more signal than the tweed-style tone control, which is why it needs a recovery amp stage afterwards.

marshman · March 28th, 2008, 02:00 PM

Well, I thought all vintage tonestacks were attenuation only, truth be told. I've heard tell of a few, modern "active" designs, but don't know anything about them. Maybe that Vox baxandall thingamabobby??

I read once that one trick for best tone is to set up your amp as you like it, then carefully remove the chassis and measure the resistance the pot is presenting to the circuit, then remove the pot and replace it with a permanent resistor of that value (or as close as you can find). While it seems logical, it also seems terribly impractical.

I just built an 18 watt 'lite IIb' as per the fine folks over at 18watt.com--just vol & tone, and am quite loving that setup. If I could just find the hum that comes in when the knobs get up towards 8, it might just be perfect.

Oh, Billm, you were a big help to me in the past with a friends BJr project--thanks again!

Trimmed&Burnin · March 28th, 2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexGoneNW

Little by little, it seems I'm tweaking down the gain on my amps with 12AX7's in the preamp stage, opting for 5751 or 12AT7's instead.

Anybody else find themselves easing back on the preamp and letting the power amps take more of the duty?

Ya know Terry,,, I always thought that about you!!

I go with 12AY7's and 12AU7's, never fooled with 12AT7's except for in use with reverb. I dont recall ever hearing you play with much gain,,, seems like you always had a cleaner tone,,,

Tremo · March 28th, 2008, 02:39 PM

I like basic standard gain amps like old Fenders and Marshalls. High gain stuff like Mesas, I can do without. With that said, there are a few guys who sound good with the gain, guys like Jay Graydon.

aunchaki · March 28th, 2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartyGrant

I resonate with what your saying. I use 5751's for similiar reasons

Me too! The 5751 is my "standard" preamp tube. It gives me a much more usable range of tones from 1 to 10. With the stock 12AX7 I was getting too much gain when I hit 3 on the dial!

Jim L · March 28th, 2008, 03:16 PM

I have never spent much time messing with tubes... although I recently picked up a cheap Silvertone 1471, which is a single-ended 1x8 combo with a tone control.

After having it a few months, I only recently took the time to swap out the preamp tube. There's a 12ax7 in there already, so what I tried today was a 12au7 and a 12ay7. Well it didn't take long... the 12ax7 is back in there to stay.

What a drop off in gain and seemingly, volume. One was anemic and I started getting an awful hum/squeal that was definitely related to the particular tube. The other wasn't as bad, but again, a serious loss of gain. I think with my tele (I was using the LP only) the loss of gain would be more of an issue to me as the tele's got lower output pups compared to the LP.

Now I'm not a distortion freak, but the 12ax7 gives me all the gain I can handle, and I like it. I can dime it with the tele and get great crunch. The LP is a bit too much with the amp dimed, but I back the amp volume off a bit, and it's fantastic.

I never expected to hear such a huge difference. Figured it would require a more trained ear, but not so. The differences were dramatic. I'm guessing a single-ended amp like the 1471 demonstrates those differences a lot considering the simplicity of the circuit.

I'm certainly not into heavy distortion. For a long time I lived off clean headroom in my Pro Reverb. Only recently have I started digging the tweed-ish tone more.

Axis29 · March 28th, 2008, 04:49 PM

I'm a clean tone guy. Always have been. Funny thing, I had a Mesa Mark IV for a long time, but was never completely satisfied with the cleans. I had a Gibson and it was nice and creamy, the gain channels were usually running very little gain, just a little breakup.

Then I picked up my DRRI and life is so much more complete. I have discovered the volume knob on my guitars. I now run them backed off to about 7 or so to clean up the sound, but ring 'em up when it's time to step out and solo. Just a little bit of the hair of the dog, as it were.

I tired a 12at7 in my DRRI in V2, it sounded very nice, but I had to go all the way to 8.5 to get ANY breakup. if I played bigger venues or Jazz all the time, I mighta stuck with that tube in there, but I went back to my JJ ecc83. Though I stuck one of them 12at7's in V1 so I can switch over to the normal channel and play some serious clean music sometimes! I may have to try a 12ay or 12au7 in there instead.

Ethical · March 28th, 2008, 06:30 PM

I love the way that lower gain amps really highlight the difference in tone between pickup settings.

I mainly use a Peavey Classic 30 (on the clean channel) nowadays and apart from a Boss TU-2 tuner I don't bother with pedals. I often get asked what boost/overdrive I use and people won't believe it's just switching pickups.

Ted

TexGoneNW · March 28th, 2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trimmed&Burnin

Ya know Terry,,, I always thought that about you!!

I go with 12AY7's and 12AU7's, never fooled with 12AT7's except for in use with reverb. I dont recall ever hearing you play with much gain,,, seems like you always had a cleaner tone,,,

Yeah, but you didn't hear me when I was playing through the solid-state Carvin with 6x10 cab, diming the volume and controlling with the master...

It's good to move every now and then so you can re-define your musical persona...

Murphy Slaw · March 28th, 2008, 07:39 PM

Hey Tremo. My Blue Angel Mesa is clean to the bone. (although they discontinued it and appear to have zero interest in making another non master amp).

I use a tubescreamer. Sometimes. Period. The reverb in the amp if I want to, not much. Not always.

I have used Marshall 4100's (DOUBLE AUGHT @ cdbaby.com) and Peavey Classics, and nothing can touch a Tele through a non master amp.

Guitars sound better when you can hear them.

Just me.

And you. We're right!

Murph.

Scott S · March 28th, 2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telenator

Low gain seperates the men from the boys! It's harder to play clean but it cuts through the mix better, has a more articulate sound, and there's no buzz to abuse the audience. I love a slightly raspy, low gain sound.

Another observation: I'll see bands (usually younger guys) where they'll alternate between clean and distorted tones via a pedal, and more often than not, the clean will cut through and sound "tough" at volume, and the distorted tone will sound mushy and quieter, because the distorted setting seemed louder at the soundcheck!

My ideal tone is one where I can bang on chords and get some crunch, but back off and get decent cleans.

Tremo · March 28th, 2008, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy Slaw

Hey Tremo. My Blue Angel Mesa is clean to the bone. (although they discontinued it and appear to have zero interest in making another non master amp).

I use a tubescreamer. Sometimes. Period. The reverb in the amp if I want to, not much. Not always.

I have used Marshall 4100's (DOUBLE AUGHT @ cdbaby.com) and Peavey Classics, and nothing can touch a Tele through a non master amp.

Guitars sound better when you can hear them.

Just me.

And you. We're right!

Murph.

Murph, the Mesa Blue Angel, IMO, is the ONLY Mesa worth a crap. Yes, those sound good. The rest of them with all that gain and knobs out the arse, phooey.

MartyGrant · March 29th, 2008, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugenedunn

Hey Marty,

How's the electro-mandolin after the pickup adjustment? And what amp did you end up using for it?

It was the right solution, Eugene. Thanks again. Lowered the bass. Raised the highs.
HRDX for tone, Cyber-D for its variety, and I'll even use the Acoustasonic Jr sometimes.....but the HRDX gets the most use.

Rumble · March 29th, 2008, 01:37 AM

I play with far less gain than I used to, but I will always play with a lot of gain. I think electric guitars sound terrible clean; clean is for acoustics. I don't use pedals; I just have the gain/master/top boost/whatever turned up all the way all the time (but I have relatively low distortion amps- an AC15 and a Blues Deville). Don't use metal distortion, don't use clean. Lectric is supposed to be dirty.

March 27th, 2008, 10:18 PM	#1 (permalink)
TexGoneNW Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Victoria, TX Age: 50 Posts: 878 4 Photos	I have become a lower gain kind of guy Little by little, it seems I'm tweaking down the gain on my amps with 12AX7's in the preamp stage, opting for 5751 or 12AT7's instead. Anybody else find themselves easing back on the preamp and letting the power amps take more of the duty?

March 27th, 2008, 11:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
tazzboy Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2005 Location: Eugene, Oregon Age: 31 Posts: 2,217	Yeah I doing this to my bassman reissue I put a ECC81 in the V1 spot. __________________ tazzboy Guitar: 1982 Gibson Les Paul Standard AMP: 59 Bassman Reissue EFFECTS: 2 Boss TR-2 Tremolo and Boss DM-3 Echo Delay.

March 28th, 2008, 01:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
MartyGrant TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Deserts of New Mexico Age: 56 Posts: 21	I resonate with what your saying. I use 5751's for similiar reasons. I also dig the lipstick pups I use. I like their smoothness. I use so little gain that I often hit a cord just to check if I'm on clean or not. Maybe an alnico speaker for my HRDX is the next step towards the tone I'm after. __________________ If I only had a decent amp for my air guitar...

March 28th, 2008, 05:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
eugenedunn Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA Age: 54 Posts: 395 33 Photos	Yes! I've really gotten into that practice lately. I have listened to a lot of tubes in different positions lately. V1 replacements almost always end up being 12AY7's. If there's a reverb section, the V2 (reverb driver) usually ends up being a 12AU7 since that tube and the 12AT7 can take the current in that circuit best. It seems like the Reverb Return and Mix usually stay at a 12AX7 though, as does the PI tube. And it seems like the V1's end up being RCA's, even though other NOS and UOS tubes are fine also. They just seem to end up being my first choices, sonically. __________________ Ono Boy says "good n' swampy....."

March 28th, 2008, 05:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,987	Low gain seperates the men from the boys! It's harder to play clean but it cuts through the mix better, has a more articulate sound, and there's no buzz to abuse the audience. I love a slightly raspy, low gain sound. __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

March 27th, 2008, 10:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
Del Pickup TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 87	It's a sure sign of age (oops, sorry I meant maturity!) when you do that! Been a low gain kinda guy myself for several years now and positively cringe at those high gain tones nowadays. I think lower gain settings are also useful to help you hear more of what you're actually playing and how you're attacking the strings which in turn helps you become a better player. It's a bit like the old adage about any guitarist being able to make a solo sound interesting using a wah pedal but it takes a better player to play the same solo without the wah tone and still make it interesting. I use 12AY7's in my Bassman and they give a very nice lower gain on that amp. I'll be trying the same with my DRRI when that needs some new preamp tubes.

March 28th, 2008, 03:00 AM	#5 (permalink)
Scott S Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: NE CR IA US NA PE Posts: 902	I've never liked the mushy, high-gain kind of tone. Perhaps it's the contrarian in me, but all of the modern rock with distortion pedals on "stun" has led me to use tones as clean as I can get away with!

March 28th, 2008, 06:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
eugenedunn Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA Age: 54 Posts: 395 33 Photos	Hey Marty, How's the electro-mandolin after the pickup adjustment? And what amp did you end up using for it? __________________ Ono Boy says "good n' swampy....."

March 28th, 2008, 09:09 AM	#9 (permalink)
Billm Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Age: 61 Posts: 132	A 5751 or 12AY7 is almost always a better choice than a 12AT7/ECC81. The 12AT7 is a driver tube, not a preamp. It has lower internal impedance, which is good for high-current applications like driving a reverb tank. But the lower impedance also tends to kill of high frequencies. You may like the mellower sound, but I'd rather shape the highs with my tone controls rather than letting the tubes eat up tone that I'll never get back. The 12AU7 is also a driver tube, with even lower impedance and lower gain than the 12AT7. If you want lower gain, look at Leo's old schematics. You'll never see a 12AT7 in the preamp; it was always a 12AY7 for lower gain or a 12AX7 for higher. He knew what he was doing.

March 28th, 2008, 10:20 AM	#10 (permalink)
marshman Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SE PA Posts: 550	I'd always gotten the impression that due the 'attenuation only' nature (I feel there' a term fir this that eludes me) of the cool, vintage-esque tone stacks we old-school types seem to crave, that lower gain V1s were a better choice than using the tone stack--I'd rather have a 12AT7 in V1 and my tonestack nearly dimed than a 7025 in V1 and most of the gain killed in the tonestack. In theory. As it applied to my Epi VJr, I definitely preferred the sound of a 12AU7 and the control at 9/10 over a 12AX7 and the control at 4/10. Of course, that amp has no tone stack to speak of, so that theory might not apply. Headed to a hamfest this weekend, hoping to stock up on AY7s and 5751s, though. A few AT7s, just to be thorough.

March 28th, 2008, 10:27 AM	#11 (permalink)
ac15 Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2005 Location: CHICAGO, IL. Posts: 378	Another advantage of lower gain settings is that you can use chords and voicings that normally sound like dog crap with higher gain settings.

March 28th, 2008, 10:29 AM	#12 (permalink)
Billm Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Age: 61 Posts: 132	Heh--all Fender tone stacks are attenuation only. Even the three-band tone stack only removes tone, it doesn't boost it. And it removes a lot more signal than the tweed-style tone control, which is why it needs a recovery amp stage afterwards.

March 28th, 2008, 02:00 PM	#13 (permalink)
marshman Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SE PA Posts: 550	Well, I thought all vintage tonestacks were attenuation only, truth be told. I've heard tell of a few, modern "active" designs, but don't know anything about them. Maybe that Vox baxandall thingamabobby?? I read once that one trick for best tone is to set up your amp as you like it, then carefully remove the chassis and measure the resistance the pot is presenting to the circuit, then remove the pot and replace it with a permanent resistor of that value (or as close as you can find). While it seems logical, it also seems terribly impractical. I just built an 18 watt 'lite IIb' as per the fine folks over at 18watt.com--just vol & tone, and am quite loving that setup. If I could just find the hum that comes in when the knobs get up towards 8, it might just be perfect. Oh, Billm, you were a big help to me in the past with a friends BJr project--thanks again!

March 28th, 2008, 02:39 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tremo Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, CA, USA Posts: 3,547	I like basic standard gain amps like old Fenders and Marshalls. High gain stuff like Mesas, I can do without. With that said, there are a few guys who sound good with the gain, guys like Jay Graydon. __________________ Exposing the CONs. www.myspace.com/59tremolux

March 28th, 2008, 03:16 PM	#17 (permalink)
Jim L Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Merrimac, MA Posts: 353 13 Photos	I have never spent much time messing with tubes... although I recently picked up a cheap Silvertone 1471, which is a single-ended 1x8 combo with a tone control. After having it a few months, I only recently took the time to swap out the preamp tube. There's a 12ax7 in there already, so what I tried today was a 12au7 and a 12ay7. Well it didn't take long... the 12ax7 is back in there to stay. What a drop off in gain and seemingly, volume. One was anemic and I started getting an awful hum/squeal that was definitely related to the particular tube. The other wasn't as bad, but again, a serious loss of gain. I think with my tele (I was using the LP only) the loss of gain would be more of an issue to me as the tele's got lower output pups compared to the LP. Now I'm not a distortion freak, but the 12ax7 gives me all the gain I can handle, and I like it. I can dime it with the tele and get great crunch. The LP is a bit too much with the amp dimed, but I back the amp volume off a bit, and it's fantastic. I never expected to hear such a huge difference. Figured it would require a more trained ear, but not so. The differences were dramatic. I'm guessing a single-ended amp like the 1471 demonstrates those differences a lot considering the simplicity of the circuit. I'm certainly not into heavy distortion. For a long time I lived off clean headroom in my Pro Reverb. Only recently have I started digging the tweed-ish tone more.

March 28th, 2008, 04:49 PM	#18 (permalink)
Axis29 Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia, USA Age: 40 Posts: 810 1 Photos	I'm a clean tone guy. Always have been. Funny thing, I had a Mesa Mark IV for a long time, but was never completely satisfied with the cleans. I had a Gibson and it was nice and creamy, the gain channels were usually running very little gain, just a little breakup. Then I picked up my DRRI and life is so much more complete. I have discovered the volume knob on my guitars. I now run them backed off to about 7 or so to clean up the sound, but ring 'em up when it's time to step out and solo. Just a little bit of the hair of the dog, as it were. I tired a 12at7 in my DRRI in V2, it sounded very nice, but I had to go all the way to 8.5 to get ANY breakup. if I played bigger venues or Jazz all the time, I mighta stuck with that tube in there, but I went back to my JJ ecc83. Though I stuck one of them 12at7's in V1 so I can switch over to the normal channel and play some serious clean music sometimes! I may have to try a 12ay or 12au7 in there instead. __________________ John F. TDPRI # 1764

March 28th, 2008, 06:30 PM	#19 (permalink)
Ethical Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norfolk, UK Age: 52 Posts: 155	I love the way that lower gain amps really highlight the difference in tone between pickup settings. I mainly use a Peavey Classic 30 (on the clean channel) nowadays and apart from a Boss TU-2 tuner I don't bother with pedals. I often get asked what boost/overdrive I use and people won't believe it's just switching pickups. Ted __________________ If it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all

March 28th, 2008, 07:39 PM	#21 (permalink)
Murphy Slaw Tele-Meister Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Joppa, Il. Age: 50 Posts: 404	Hey Tremo. My Blue Angel Mesa is clean to the bone. (although they discontinued it and appear to have zero interest in making another non master amp). I use a tubescreamer. Sometimes. Period. The reverb in the amp if I want to, not much. Not always. I have used Marshall 4100's (DOUBLE AUGHT @ cdbaby.com) and Peavey Classics, and nothing can touch a Tele through a non master amp. Guitars sound better when you can hear them. Just me. And you. We're right! Murph.

March 29th, 2008, 01:37 AM	#25 (permalink)
Rumble Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Georgia Age: 36 Posts: 518	I play with far less gain than I used to, but I will always play with a lot of gain. I think electric guitars sound terrible clean; clean is for acoustics. I don't use pedals; I just have the gain/master/top boost/whatever turned up all the way all the time (but I have relatively low distortion amps- an AC15 and a Blues Deville). Don't use metal distortion, don't use clean. Lectric is supposed to be dirty.