The Twin (red knob) - $$ ?

[reverbbb]

Anyone know if $300 is a good price for a red knob The Twin? Seems like it to me. 1987 model. Isn't that the amp series that Rivera helped design when he worked at Fender? If it is, then it seems that these amps are 'sleepers'. but how do they sound?

[Rusty]

LOTS of people love them...especially for the price...some big names use them as their back-up or "overseas" travel amp...(james burton used one for years...robben ford...???)

the ONLY complaint i've ever heard about them is when something goes wrong and a tech has to work on the pcb...BUT if it sounds good and you need a loud twin, i wouldn't see much wrong with grabbing one...

[AngelStrummer]

Seems like a steal if it's in good working condition. I played through one in the early 90's, and from the little I can remember it was a great amp.

Big and heavy as hell, but still a great amp.

[teleclarkster]

If it's in good shape that's a great price.

[11 Gauge]

If you want to hear what those red knobbers are really capable of, get a hold of anything by The Mermen (minus the very first album)...

...Jim uses evil twins and red knobbed Dual Showmans almost exclusively.

He can get the lush deep cleans that a good Twin is known for, or a pretty cool overdriven tone as well - the red knobbers will do both.

Yah - make sure it's in good condition, and if the input/output jacks have been replaced with something more stout than the originals, that's a big plus. If not, just use some TLC.

300 is a great price, IMO.

[tiktok]

No, Rivera had nothing to do with the Red Knob designs. His stuff immediately preceded those--the Super Champ, Princeton II, Twin II, etc.

[andrenighthound]

Guitar Shorty used the "evil" twin with red knobs

[Mik]

Originally Posted by tiktok

No, Rivera had nothing to do with the Red Knob designs. His stuff immediately preceded those--the Super Champ, Princeton II, Twin II, etc.

From what I've read (published book on history of Fender amps), Paul Rivera did co-design the tube red knob amps line. I believe the red knobs were released after Rivera left Fender.

Mik

[jguitarman]

$300. sounds like a good price unless it's thrashed. I owned one that I bought new. I liked it but it was way too much power even with the half power switch thrown. They are very,very heavy so I hope you don't have to climb stairs. I had no real complaints; it just was way too much for my needs.
This would make a good amp for cleans but if you want to really push a tube amp for distortion I wouldn't try it with this one.

[Mik]

My red knob Super 112 weighed around 60 pounds, and I had to lug it up stairs a number of times one-handed (after a 5 miles walk to school through 20 foot snowdrifts etc etc etc yeah sure I did ) Luckily my 3rd floor apt had an elevator (and deaf neighbors).

Mik

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by Mik

From what I've read (published book on history of Fender amps), Paul Rivera did co-design the tube red knob amps line.

Which book is that?

[sandman72202]

Anyone know if $300 is a good price for a red knob The Twin? Seems like it to me. 1987 model. Isn't that the amp series that Rivera helped design when he worked at Fender? If it is, then it seems that these amps are 'sleepers'. but how do they sound?



from the prices i've seen...i think any twin sf to almost present is a sleeper....theres nothing like the clean lush tone of a twin

[Mik]

Originally Posted by tiktok

Which book is that?

The Fender Amp Book, feel free to correct me I read it years ago.

[Dacious]

Just be warned of two things: they don't do big, glassy, Fender Reverb like a good Silverface (and there's no tremolo at all). And they aren't survive-a-nuclear-war tough like a Silverface or earlier.

I've been under the hood of one, it is a place a tech doesn't go by choice. The pots are the dinky mini-variety and soldered onto the underside of a flexy board like a plastic school ruler, on the pushpull pots there's six or seven solder pads which take forever to disengage, so make sure they're all operational and there's no funny noises before buying. Any surgery requires a lot of things to be removed.

The sound is not bad, but it's an 80's tone - not exactly sterile clean, just not much sparkle. If you like distortion there's plenty to be had. If most of your playing is with pedals engaged it could work.

[JamonHamon]

I own one its very heavy plus I have jbls e120s that adds even more weight
if yours is stock you'll need a new speakers the stock ones are bad and the stock tubes are too!!!
but after that hold on for a GREAT SOUNDING AMP!!!

[Al Watsky]

I've played through them often. For my needs they are too loud. I run 2 amps, split with a Keeley amp switcher. The Red Knobs are way too much of a good thing in that context. I don't have to worry about lifting them up, mind you. Its rental stuff or at the venue. These are subtle as a sledge hammer. If you get a well maintained pair you can get good sounds, but if I had to choose I would prefer, any other Twin. Silver , Black or RI.
For 300 bucks though its not a bad deal and all, but I don't like em', and I like twins. I bought one years ago from a keyboard player and sold it instantly to a rehearsal studio and it was, as I was told,"loathed by anyone who plugged into it." YMMV

[tiktok]

Originally Posted by Mik

The Fender Amp Book, feel free to correct me I read it years ago.

I've got that book, and according to it, Rivera did the last of the PTP blackfaces (Super Champ, Concert, Princeton II, Twin II) and the SS amps of that era. CBS then sells Fender to Schulz' group of investors, and Rivera is dropped since he was backing a rival bid, then heads off to start Rivera amps.

The next generation of amps are cooked up by Bill Hughes (ex-Ampeg, designed the SVT) who hires Mark Wentling from Music Man to make a clean break from the Rivera era. Wentling does the Champ 12, the red-knob Dual Showman and The Twin (p.54-55).

I'm not trying to bust your chops, but I've seen the red knobs attributed to Rivera at various times, probably since Rivera's name now carries some legitimacy, and the red knobs historically haven't, so sellers realise they can drive the price up by piggybacking on his reputation. I'm not saying they're bad sounding amps, but I've never seen any evidence that Rivera had a hand in their design. If anyone can cite any sources to the contrary, I'm all ears.

[JamonHamon]

Originally Posted by tiktok

I've got that book, and according to it, Rivera did the last of the PTP blackfaces (Super Champ, Concert, Princeton II, Twin II) and the SS amps of that era. CBS then sells Fender to Schulz' group of investors, and Rivera is dropped since he was backing a rival bid, then heads off to start Rivera amps.

The next generation of amps are cooked up by Bill Hughes (ex-Ampeg, designed the SVT) who hires Mark Wentling from Music Man to make a clean break from the Rivera era. Wentling does the Champ 12, the red-knob Dual Showman and The Twin (p.54-55).

I'm not trying to bust your chops, but I've seen the red knobs attributed to Rivera at various times, probably since Rivera's name now carries some legitimacy, and the red knobs historically haven't, so sellers realise they can drive the price up by piggybacking on his reputation. I'm not saying they're bad sounding amps, but I've never seen any evidence that Rivera had a hand in their design. If anyone can cite any sources to the contrary, I'm all ears.

+1

[reverbbb]

Thanks tiktok. And the rest of everyone's input as well.

There is something 'unmagical' about the red knobs. I think that you can find some comments by me several years ago. I was softly bashing them. I basically was saying they were not 'sought after and highly desireable'. As I often do, I was talking off the cuff with not much to back what I was saying other than observations.

When I saw The Twin on craigslist for $300, I thought, "Hmm, everyone has gone nuts over a $299 Les Paul Jr. amp. For $300, you can get a much more powerful tube amp.". Then, I started second guessing if the design was influenced by Rivera. I actually confused myself. I have no reason to solidly believe that these were designed by Rivera. I simply confused it with the Twin II apparently.

"Lothed"? That is certainly a hear-say based opinion. But I have a tendency to think that the 'majority rules'. Common opinion often steer's our collective taste as to what is defined as good or bad. It is not always accurate and not always scientific. But I have only heard of very few people that dislike the Dumble amps (though there are few that hate them). Therefore, because of the majority rules factor, the Dumble becomes a reference point for some folks. The Twin has always been a reference point for me because of it's frequent appearance at pawn shops at low prices during the 1990s. Therefore, collectively they have not been highly regarded.

All this rambling sounds like a complete turn around from my thread leader. But this conversation has helped me to re-establish my perception of this amp. I believe that I have demo'd The Twin back in the late 90s when I was getting reacquaited with the guitar after a long-long hietas. This may be the point where I drew my prejudice. But I also had some mis-conceptions about tone and musical value during those days as well. I should revisit this amp in person to know for sure.

But as I sit here and pound out all these words, I also re-affirmed my love for Marshall amps. I have a significant collection now. Not significant in how many I own, but the quality of the few that I have. I have just never been able to obtain the tones that I like out of Fender amps. I love a good Strat or Tele through a Fender amp. But I don't know how to coach those tones out myself. Oddly enough, a friend I met on a forum heard me play a Strat through a Bassbreaker that I used to own. He LOVED my tone and said, "And you don't like that sound?". I guess I just hear things differently when I hear myself play as opposed to hearing others play. What causes that?

[casterway]

A good bit of info here.

http://www.dannymarx.com/redknob.html

[Dan German]

Originally Posted by tiktok

I've got that book, and according to it, Rivera did the last of the PTP blackfaces (Super Champ, Concert, Princeton II, Twin II) and the SS amps of that era. CBS then sells Fender to Schulz' group of investors, and Rivera is dropped since he was backing a rival bid, then heads off to start Rivera amps.

The next generation of amps are cooked up by Bill Hughes (ex-Ampeg, designed the SVT) who hires Mark Wentling from Music Man to make a clean break from the Rivera era. Wentling does the Champ 12, the red-knob Dual Showman and The Twin (p.54-55).

Well, I don't know about the red knob amps, and I don't have the Fender Amp book, but Bill Hughes (by his own account) did the Concert and Deluxe Reverb II under Rivera, while Ed Jahns did the Twin Reverb II, Princeton Reverb II, Super Champ, and Bassman 20 combo. Not that Rivera didn't have a hand in designing those amps, but he was the Marketing Director and had a good team working under him. People always talk about Rivera like he single-handedly churned out amps. Guys like Ed Jahns deserve some credit too. He worked for Fender for a long time.

And a friend of mine picked up one of the Champ 12 red knobs 10 years ago as a living room practice amp. Definitely not as robust as my PRII, but a good-sounding amp for the money. And so far, nothing's broken.

[11 Gauge]

I feel that too much emphasis is being put on the amp, and not the person in front of it, playing.

As I've said on many occaisions, Jim Thomas has used these for over a decade, for almost all of the Mermen's studio stuff, and thousands of gigs. His tone is stellar without question.

I also recall a blues cat (Tino Gonzales) that years ago had one of the smaller red knobbers, and he sounded great. I couldn't believe that those tones were coming from that amp. In subsequent gigs, the amp was swapped out for MusicMan amps, SF, etc., but his tone was always good and consistent.

Aside from serviceability issues, I think that tone-wise the red knobbers can hold their own, if the guitarist knows what he or she is doing...

[meyekel]

True on that 11 Gauge. I saw Albert King use one back in the early 90's and he sounded great. I mean, he's Albert King after all but he made that amp sing!