Put Vibro-Champ in a 12" cab or get Princeton or MMB?

reverberocket2 · March 5th, 2008, 04:10 PM

Been dissapointed with the response of teh 10" Weber 10F150T in my Vibro Champ. I've also had an Alnico Sig 10" loaded in the Vibro-Champ. I think I just don't like 1x10 format.

Last night I connected the VC to the Weber 12F150 housed in my larger Ampeg Reverberocket 2 combo. Only ran it for a few mintues cause of the impedence mismatch but wow, that's the tone I've been looking for.

So should I rehouse the Vibro-Champ in a larger cab cut for a 12" or should I sell it and pick up a SF Princeton or MMB?

I'm a bit reluctant about the Princeton - 2 6v6 at 12 watts isn't really that much louder - but from what I understand they run very clean on the dial - loads of headroom - which is not what I'm looking for. I like the tone, response and headroom of teh VC but it appears I much prefer 12" over 10" speakers

voided3 · March 5th, 2008, 04:35 PM

If you like the amp, just not the speaker, definitely keep it. I've seen guys convert Vibro Champs into mini piggybacks before so I'd imagine it wouldn't be a bad idea to either get a different cabinet for it (1x12 combo or a head) or just run it into an extension cab.

eugenedunn · March 5th, 2008, 05:39 PM

So are the 10-inch Webers you've been running 4 or 8 ohm speakers?

Aren't the Vibro Champs rated at 3.2 ohms like the Champs? If you're running an 8 ohm speaker with the Vibro Champ, could be you're exceeding the impedance load limit of the amp by a bit and not taking full advantage of the VC output capability at 3.2 ohms?

I just ordered a 3.2 ohm 8-inch Weber for my 79 Champ, which already rocks, but this beefier speaker with a 30-ounce magnet should really help it project more.

Geno

reverberocket2 · March 5th, 2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugenedunn

So are the 10-inch Webers you've been running 4 or 8 ohm speakers?

Geno

Running 4 ohm speakers in the VC

eugenedunn · March 5th, 2008, 08:04 PM

Hey ReverbRocket,

I'll post a comment about the Weber 8F125 that I'm dropping into the Champ this week... Keep an eye out for it.

Hey here's another thought..... maybe the Vibro Champ cabinet is too small for the 10-inch, and it sounds boxy and directional flat to you. A speaker needs some breathing room.... that's why I didn't push to recut a 10-inch baffle for that small cabinet. Could be that by plugging into your 12-inch speaker that resides in another bigger cabinet (built for that 12-inch), you are actually hearing how a properly matched cabinet dimension augments a speaker. Hmmmmm, give that a thought.

Rob DiStefano · March 5th, 2008, 08:15 PM

For what yer looking to achieve, my answer is a Li'l Dawg Champster Special in a special AmpCabCo cab loaded with either a JenNeo 12 or a Weber 12F150. Not all that expensive, either - and the tone, The Tone!!!

This is the Champster Special chassis in a cab I built, loaded with a 12F150, that's currently being professionally gigged and recorded ...

Texsunburst59 · March 5th, 2008, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by voided3

If you like the amp, just not the speaker, definitely keep it. I've seen guys convert Vibro Champs into mini piggybacks.

11 Gauge · March 5th, 2008, 11:18 PM

Keep the VC - it sounds like it's a winner.

Just go into an external cab. That's what I do with almost all of my amps these days, whether they're a combo or a head.

All you need is one of each of these:

reverberocket2 · March 5th, 2008, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugenedunn

Hey ReverbRocket,

I'll post a comment about the Weber 8F125 that I'm dropping into the Champ this week... Keep an eye out for it.

Will do

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugenedunn

Hey here's another thought..... maybe the Vibro Champ cabinet is too small for the 10-inch, and it sounds boxy and directional flat to you...

It is slightly boxy, but with the Weber 10F150T and robust JJ6V6 it definitely does not sound flat or like a small amp

I guess what I'm after is trying to make this VC sound/feel like a much larger amp in a light portable package.

Maybe a plain old 10F150 would be better than the 10F150T cone

What my ears want to hear is a bit more spread and fullness on the bottom (right now low end response is tight and quick)

I also would like a bit more mids and slightly warmer top end.

reverberocket2 · March 5th, 2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

For what yer looking to achieve, my answer is a Li'l Dawg Champster Special in a special AmpCabCo cab loaded with either a JenNeo 12 or a Weber 12F150. Not all that expensive, either - and the tone, The Tone!!!

This is the Champster Special chassis in a cab I built, loaded with a 12F150, that's currently being professionally gigged and recorded ...

Hey Rob, that sure is looker and with the 15" it must sound fat.

Going to have to look into Lil Dawg, I don't really have any experience with tweed style amps.

I do like the SF VCs cleans and trem though

reverberocket2 · March 5th, 2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texsunburst59

Texas that is just Sexy

If I did something like that in BF cosmetics it sure would look mini-me cool next to my BF Showman head and cab

Not sure I want to spend that much $

Although I've been getting tired of low note tube rattle in my combos.

eugenedunn · March 6th, 2008, 01:07 AM

Ok ReverbRocket, everything you said about wanting warmer top end and more bass fullness is what happens when you substitute a lower gain preamp tube in V1. Instead of an aggressive fuzz attack that starts at 6 and squishes everything from then on, put in a 12AT7 or a 5751 and see how that helps take a bit of edge off the fuzz and lend a bit more definition to your overdrive range.

I've been playing around a lot with my SF 79 Champ's tubes.... and have been studying how the changes in preamp tube gain affect the overdrive character and note definition within chords....

If anything, getting some different preamp tubes is like "flavor of the month" It is really an easy and satisfying tweak. I hardly ever use the stock 12AX7's anymore..... I find that the lower gain preamp tubes seem to put these little vibey vintage amps in an area that favors more clean headroom and better mating with pedals of all kinds...

reverberocket2 · March 6th, 2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugenedunn

Ok ReverbRocket, everything you said about wanting warmer top end and more bass fullness is what happens when you substitute a lower gain preamp tube in V1. Instead of an aggressive fuzz attack that starts at 6 and squishes everything from then on, put in a 12AT7 or a 5751 and see how that helps take a bit of edge off the fuzz and lend a bit more definition to your overdrive range.

I've been playing around a lot with my SF 79 Champ's tubes.... and have been studying how the changes in preamp tube gain affect the overdrive character and note definition within chords....

If anything, getting some different preamp tubes is like "flavor of the month" It is really an easy and satisfying tweak. I hardly ever use the stock 12AX7's anymore..... I find that the lower gain preamp tubes seem to put these little vibey vintage amps in an area that favors more clean headroom and better mating with pedals of all kinds...

Cool, thanks for the tip

I'll definitley look into some pre-amps

Texsunburst59 · March 6th, 2008, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverberocket2

Texas that is just Sexy

If I did something like that in BF cosmetics it sure would look mini-me cool next to my BF Showman head and cab

Not sure I want to spend that much $

Although I've been getting tired of low note tube rattle in my combos.

You mean like Mini-Me like this?

Here's a pic of my amp guy who made the amp standing with it for size reference.

Rob DiStefano · March 6th, 2008, 07:42 AM

How 'bout an MMB head?

reverberocket2 · March 6th, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

How 'bout an MMB head?

Now that is super tempting.

It appears that the MMB and VC chassis are the same size 17".

If I pick up a MMB I could slide the VC Champ chassis into the MMB cab and get a head cab built for the MMB

How do the 6AQ5 version sound are they more Vox sounding than the 6V6 version or am I thinking of 6BQ5s?

Rob DiStefano · March 6th, 2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverberocket2

Now that is super tempting.

It appears that the MMB and VC chassis are the same size 17".

Yep, both chassis are 15" wide. I build those cabs with 16-7/8" top and bottom 3/4" pine boards.

If I pick up a MMB I could slide the VC Champ chassis into the MMB cab and get a head cab built for the MMB

Sounds perfectly doable.

How do the 6AQ5 version sound are they more Vox sounding than the 6V6 version or am I thinking of 6BQ5s?

There is a world of sonic difference 'tween the 6AQ5 and the 6BQ5 (EL84). Some say they can, but I really can't tell the difference 'tween the tone of the 6AQ5 and the 6V6.

....

bluesfordan · March 6th, 2008, 11:36 AM

hey, Rob, how much would a head cab for a MMB chassis cost?

I'm trying to decide if I want to build another MMB combo cab for my SF champ chassis and 12" jensen, or use the old combo cab for them. Then I might put the MMB in a head cab, and get a cab for my JBL D130F.

If I've asked these questions before, please forgive me, I turned 50 on sunday and senility is raging on.

Rob DiStefano · March 6th, 2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesfordan

hey, Rob, how much would a head cab for a MMB chassis cost?

Oops, we all need to be careful to even think of doing business in a TDPRI post!

I'm trying to decide if I want to build another MMB combo cab for my SF champ chassis and 12" jensen, or use the old combo cab for them. Then I might put the MMB in a head cab, and get a cab for my JBL D130F.

If I've asked these questions before, please forgive me, I turned 50 on sunday and senility is raging on.

....

camari · March 6th, 2008, 12:11 PM

Rob, what kind of finish do you use on the pine cabs to increase durability. My Southern Pineycaster is doggone soft ,it dont take nothing to leave a mark. I used Waterlox, then amber shellac, then thin coats of poly and it is still a softee. I know its worth the effort to keep using pine for cabs, I have yet to found the magical finish yet.

reverberocket2 · March 6th, 2008, 12:50 PM

So then tonally the MMB 6QA5/6V6 is pretty much in the same Fender ballpark as the VC - just more clean headroom and slightly louder (12 vs. 6 watts)

Rob DiStefano · March 6th, 2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camari

Rob, what kind of finish do you use on the pine cabs to increase durability. My Southern Pineycaster is doggone soft ,it dont take nothing to leave a mark. I used Waterlox, then amber shellac, then thin coats of poly and it is still a softee. I know its worth the effort to keep using pine for cabs, I have yet to found the magical finish yet.

I've not found any simple cab finish that's bullet proof. Epoxy or fullerplast clear finishes would probably be best, but I've not gone that route.

I'll stain the raw pine, then finger smear on slow set epoxy to the dovetailed edges and corners, sand the epoxy after it hardens, then wipe or spray on at least 6 coats of polyU. Yeah, it'll ding up - maybe I should call it "amp relicing".

eugenedunn · March 24th, 2008, 04:47 AM

Hi ReverbRocket;

I finally received the Weber 8-inch 8F125 for my 79 Champ..... here's my prelim review shortly after installation, without appreciable break-in time.

This speaker is far more robust than the original 8-inch in my Champ. The magnet is touted as about 30 ounces. It's big. But it does fit onto the Champ baffle perfectly if you orient the speaker cage so the Champ's cap can is just between one of the holes in the cage.

Ted and his staff characterize this speaker as "loud as heck for an 8-inch, aggressive, punchy cleans and much later breakup". Well that really sums it up, quick and dirty. (^_^)

The cone is ribbed and the sound is very smooth at low volumes below 7. As you turn up past 8, I feel that the sound projected aggressively, crisply, but not with super top end sparkle. After break-in, I am hoping I will get some mellowing over time and maybe get some of that sparkle back at higher volumes....

The really great thing is that when this amp is dimed, there's no farting with low notes or chords, I believe. Very cool for me. That's what I wanted, because I intend to use my pedalboard with this amp during lower volume rehearsals. I feel that a controlled, cleaner headroom amp takes pedal action much better.

This Champ has some tube tweaks, as I have mentioned before. All the tweaks were made in order to sweeten up the clean headroom, leaving overdriven grind only when the guitar volume knob is full on or close to.

That was accomplished with the auditioning of several NOS and UOS 12AY7's and 6V6's..... I am so happy with this speaker and the amp now. As much as I think my 69 Princeton Reverb has incredible features and overall tone, there is something REALLY fun about this dinky Champ and the fact that with minimum controls, it can hold it's own in a rehearsal.

I will post photos of the installation in my member gallery soon. Check it out.

March 5th, 2008, 04:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
reverberocket2 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 371	Put Vibro-Champ in a 12" cab or get Princeton or MMB? Been dissapointed with the response of teh 10" Weber 10F150T in my Vibro Champ. I've also had an Alnico Sig 10" loaded in the Vibro-Champ. I think I just don't like 1x10 format. Last night I connected the VC to the Weber 12F150 housed in my larger Ampeg Reverberocket 2 combo. Only ran it for a few mintues cause of the impedence mismatch but wow, that's the tone I've been looking for. So should I rehouse the Vibro-Champ in a larger cab cut for a 12" or should I sell it and pick up a SF Princeton or MMB? I'm a bit reluctant about the Princeton - 2 6v6 at 12 watts isn't really that much louder - but from what I understand they run very clean on the dial - loads of headroom - which is not what I'm looking for. I like the tone, response and headroom of teh VC but it appears I much prefer 12" over 10" speakers

March 6th, 2008, 12:11 PM	#20 (permalink)
camari Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Florida Age: 50 Posts: 102	Rob, what kind of finish do you use on the pine cabs to increase durability. My Southern Pineycaster is doggone soft ,it dont take nothing to leave a mark. I used Waterlox, then amber shellac, then thin coats of poly and it is still a softee. I know its worth the effort to keep using pine for cabs, I have yet to found the magical finish yet. __________________ Remember to listen.

March 5th, 2008, 04:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
voided3 Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 735	If you like the amp, just not the speaker, definitely keep it. I've seen guys convert Vibro Champs into mini piggybacks before so I'd imagine it wouldn't be a bad idea to either get a different cabinet for it (1x12 combo or a head) or just run it into an extension cab.

March 5th, 2008, 05:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
eugenedunn Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA Age: 55 Posts: 839 37 Photos	So are the 10-inch Webers you've been running 4 or 8 ohm speakers? Aren't the Vibro Champs rated at 3.2 ohms like the Champs? If you're running an 8 ohm speaker with the Vibro Champ, could be you're exceeding the impedance load limit of the amp by a bit and not taking full advantage of the VC output capability at 3.2 ohms? I just ordered a 3.2 ohm 8-inch Weber for my 79 Champ, which already rocks, but this beefier speaker with a 30-ounce magnet should really help it project more. Geno

March 5th, 2008, 08:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
eugenedunn Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA Age: 55 Posts: 839 37 Photos	Hey ReverbRocket, I'll post a comment about the Weber 8F125 that I'm dropping into the Champ this week... Keep an eye out for it. Hey here's another thought..... maybe the Vibro Champ cabinet is too small for the 10-inch, and it sounds boxy and directional flat to you. A speaker needs some breathing room.... that's why I didn't push to recut a 10-inch baffle for that small cabinet. Could be that by plugging into your 12-inch speaker that resides in another bigger cabinet (built for that 12-inch), you are actually hearing how a properly matched cabinet dimension augments a speaker. Hmmmmm, give that a thought.

March 5th, 2008, 08:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 63 Posts: 4,918	For what yer looking to achieve, my answer is a Li'l Dawg Champster Special in a special AmpCabCo cab loaded with either a JenNeo 12 or a Weber 12F150. Not all that expensive, either - and the tone, The Tone!!! This is the Champster Special chassis in a cab I built, loaded with a 12F150, that's currently being professionally gigged and recorded ...

March 6th, 2008, 01:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
eugenedunn Tele-Holic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Sacramento, CA Age: 55 Posts: 839 37 Photos	Ok ReverbRocket, everything you said about wanting warmer top end and more bass fullness is what happens when you substitute a lower gain preamp tube in V1. Instead of an aggressive fuzz attack that starts at 6 and squishes everything from then on, put in a 12AT7 or a 5751 and see how that helps take a bit of edge off the fuzz and lend a bit more definition to your overdrive range. I've been playing around a lot with my SF 79 Champ's tubes.... and have been studying how the changes in preamp tube gain affect the overdrive character and note definition within chords.... If anything, getting some different preamp tubes is like "flavor of the month" It is really an easy and satisfying tweak. I hardly ever use the stock 12AX7's anymore..... I find that the lower gain preamp tubes seem to put these little vibey vintage amps in an area that favors more clean headroom and better mating with pedals of all kinds...

March 6th, 2008, 07:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
Rob DiStefano Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Park Ridge, NJ Age: 63 Posts: 4,918	How 'bout an MMB head?

March 6th, 2008, 11:36 AM	#18 (permalink)
bluesfordan Tele-Meister Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 498	hey, Rob, how much would a head cab for a MMB chassis cost? I'm trying to decide if I want to build another MMB combo cab for my SF champ chassis and 12" jensen, or use the old combo cab for them. Then I might put the MMB in a head cab, and get a cab for my JBL D130F. If I've asked these questions before, please forgive me, I turned 50 on sunday and senility is raging on.

March 6th, 2008, 12:50 PM	#21 (permalink)
reverberocket2 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 371	So then tonally the MMB 6QA5/6V6 is pretty much in the same Fender ballpark as the VC - just more clean headroom and slightly louder (12 vs. 6 watts)