Poly vs Nitro = top vibration?

[JohnnyCrash]

I'm finally getting ready to buy a "real" acoustic guitar. Solid rosewood sides and back, solid spruce top.

Without the funds in my hand for a few months, I've been researching and re-researching like crazy. I think I've narrowed it down to 2 - 4 models/brands.

My question is:
Does the lacquer affect the acoustic properties a whole lot? Natural vibration, etc?

On electrics I'm less concerned (solidbody, pickups, more variables involved, etc), but seeing how I need a GREAT acoustic for recording, I am concerned.

[eryque]

Any finish will dampen vibration. A thinly applied finish won't dampen it much, and the main advantage of protecting the wood overcomes the amount of tone you lose. Dirt and grime dampen vibration too.

Most acoustic manufacturers apply the finish pretty thinly, even if it's poly. I have seen exceptions on the low end.

I do not believe there will be any noticable difference in tone between a guitar with a good poly finish and a guitar with a good nitro finish. You'll do better at picking up guitars and strumming them to see if they sound good than worrying too much about specs.

[wierdOne]

nitro isn't necessarily the only way to go....

There's a water based poly finish that (Taylor I think) has been using that is just about as thin as Nitro.... maybe it's a UV cured finish.... i forget... but apparently.. it's great stuff...

anyways... some of the senior members of the acoustic guitar forum seem to think that the whole Nitro better than Poly is a load of horse hockey.......

BUT... there is a tremendous difference between Home Depot Poly, and Luthier grade poly......

Nitro vs. Poly thread acoustic guitar forum

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by eryque

Any finish will dampen vibration. A thinly applied finish won't dampen it much, and the main advantage of protecting the wood overcomes the amount of tone you lose. Dirt and grime dampen vibration too.

Most acoustic manufacturers apply the finish pretty thinly, even if it's poly. I have seen exceptions on the low end.

I do not believe there will be any noticable difference in tone between a guitar with a good poly finish and a guitar with a good nitro finish. You'll do better at picking up guitars and strumming them to see if they sound good than worrying too much about specs.

Cool. Thanks for your input!

I have no choice but to drool and look at specs... I don't have the cash yet :(

When I get the cash though, I agree. I'll have to try them out.

As far as trying them, I'm not sure what I'll do. The SoCal guitar shops (pretty much now just the big boys like GuitarCenter and SamAsh) don't have a lot of warehoused stock and I am NOT walking home with the upper-mid-level budget guitars they have not been able to push on the floor and have been abused for months by 12 year old punk rockers.

That said, I do need to try them all out anyway. Especially since I have no clue about Acoustics and I'm interested in the difference in sound in Martin's different bracings.

I may actually "settle" for a Guild GAD-50 (all solid rosewood and spruce, bone nut/saddle, very decent price) - even though Fender torched Guild's tradition and now has em made in the Tacoma factory (another Fender acquisition)... the subject of another thread I guess :)

[eryque]

Originally Posted by wierdOne

...is just about as thin as Nitro....

See, there's the misleading information. Nitro doesn't have a thickness. Poly doesn't have a thickness. Either is applied as thickly or as thinly as the expertise of the finisher allows, and the finish thickness is a choice. Thicker finishes are more forgiving, help cover up flaws in the surface of the wood, and are more resilient. Doesn't matter if it's nitro, poly, french polish, or any one of a number of other available finishes.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

I may actually "settle" for a Guild GAD-50 (all solid rosewood and spruce, bone nut/saddle, very decent price) - even though Fender torched Guild's tradition and now has em made in the Tacoma factory (another Fender acquisition)... the subject of another thread I guess :)

I'm not sure that "settling" is the right term for the GAD series. Mike Rice has a couple and they're very nice. (And, btw, I'm pretty sure they're made overseas.)

A couple of weeks ago I was jonsing hard for a new acoustic so I went to GC (among other places) and played everything except the super low end stuff. I was surprised at how well the solid wood guitars in the $600-800 range stacked up against guitars costing 4 or 5 times as much. I could absolutely hear a difference, but the difference was not night and day.

In the end I stuck with my '81 Guild D40, but in the new market I'm a big fan of the Guild DV and GAD series and the Epiphone Masterbuilt series.

[Stubee]

I've had old & newer Gibsons + Martins (nitro), old Guilds (nitro), other stuff (nitro). Also had three different Taylors (not nitro). I'm not a real Taylor fan, but they use a nice finish system and the guitars sound just fine. Very fine, actually, just not my cup of tea.

About the only difference, and it's probably marginal with any really thin finish, is that nitro tends to age and dry into the wood. You can see more grain over the years. This means that nitro finishes may provide some tonal difference as they age.

But there is more to aging a guitar than just the finish. I wouldn't choose a flattop just because it did or didn't have nitro. I'd find one that I liked and not worry about the finish. And like I said, I'm a Gibson lover (nitro) thru & thru...but I've had others, they were just as nice, I just centered on Gibsons.

Have fun guitar hunting, probably as much fun as guitar owning.

[eastside]

Originally Posted by eryque

See, there's the misleading information. Nitro doesn't have a thickness. Poly doesn't have a thickness. Either is applied as thickly or as thinly as the expertise of the finisher allows, and the finish thickness is a choice. Thicker finishes are more forgiving, help cover up flaws in the surface of the wood, and are more resilient. Doesn't matter if it's nitro, poly, french polish, or any one of a number of other available finishes.



I'm not sure that "settling" is the right term for the GAD series. Mike Rice has a couple and they're very nice. (And, btw, I'm pretty sure they're made overseas.)

A couple of weeks ago I was jonsing hard for a new acoustic so I went to GC (among other places) and played everything except the super low end stuff. I was surprised at how well the solid wood guitars in the $600-800 range stacked up against guitars costing 4 or 5 times as much. I could absolutely hear a difference, but the difference was not night and day.

In the end I stuck with my '81 Guild D40, but in the new market I'm a big fan of the Guild DV and GAD series and the Epiphone Masterbuilt series.

+1 as to the GADs and the Epi Masterbuilts

Greg

[zombywoof]

From what I gather from the "experts" each layer of nitro actually melts the previous layer and bonds as it dries. A nitro finish will have maybe four times the layers of a Poly finish but it is the thinness of the layers which keep the wood pores from getting clogged.

In my opinion, the thickness of the wood top and bracing will have more impact on tone and aging than any thinly applied finish no matter what the material used. One of the reasons the Norlin-era Gibsons have the poor reputation they do is that they sport pretty thick tops and were over braced. I doubt a nitro finish would do much to improve the situation.

BTW, I know more than a few Guild freaks who like the Tacoma-made guitars.

[Tim Armstrong]

Johnny, have you gone down to Buffalo Brothers in Carlsbad? Friends of mine in SoCal have had good experiences there...

Oh, and play some dang Larrivees!

Cheers, Tim

[Blues Hurler]

Hey Johnny: I was looking for a nice acoustic a couple years back, but didn't want to spend a ton of cash because I don't play much acoustic. After a lot of looking and playing I bought a GAD 50 and never regretted it. Tweak the neck till it's nice and straight and it's a pretty impressive guitar, especially for the money. I couldn't find anything better up here for under $1,000 (my price limit at the time).

[eryque]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

From what I gather from the "experts" each layer of nitro actually melts the previous layer and bonds as it dries.

Yes.

Originally Posted by zombywoof

A nitro finish will have maybe four times the layers of a Poly finish

No. Each layer of poly (if sprayed well) will be just as thin.

Originally Posted by zombywoof

it is the thinness of the layers which keep the wood pores from getting clogged.

No. Whether you're using nitro or poly, the first thing you do when finishing a guitar is to clog all those pores. If you don't, your finish is full of holes like those new Gibson UV-finished guitars.

Originally Posted by zombywoof

In my opinion, the thickness of the wood top and bracing will have more impact on tone and aging than any thinly applied finish no matter what the material used.

I agree with that, for sure. Pick up a good Martin and then pick up something lesser. You'll notice that the Martin is much lighter. They make their tops as thin as possible and brace as lightly as possible, which is part of how they get their sound. And almost all of them need some serious repair unless you use light strings.

The Guilds are an exception. Somehow they figured out how to build them like tanks but still make them sound great. My D40 has gotta be 2 pounds heavier than a comparable Martin dread, but still sounds good.

[JohnnyCrash]

Originally Posted by eryque

I'm not sure that "settling" is the right term for the GAD series. Mike Rice has a couple and they're very nice. (And, btw, I'm pretty sure they're made overseas.)

Good to know they're well received here. I trust TDPRI'ers more than most other guitar folks.

The upper end Guilds are built in the Tacoma factory, correct? Where are the lesser Guilds built and by whom?

Originally Posted by Tim Armstrong

Johnny, have you gone down to Buffalo Brothers in Carlsbad? Friends of mine in SoCal have had good experiences there...

Oh, and play some dang Larrivees!

Cheers, Tim

Carlsbad is a bit of a drive for me... I may make the trip once I have the dough though.

Larrivees? Do they have solid Rosewood bodied, spruce top models that are affordable?

I am not going to use this acoustic for gigging at all. Strictly recording and it must be near "magic" for this purpose. I think I prefer rosewood over mahogany so far (for top end projection), but I'm still not sure what I'm doing with acoustics :)

[eryque]

The upper end Guilds were made in the Tacoma factory, but Fender just announced that they're moving production to the Ovation factory. Who knows how long it'll take before the new run of guitars are made there.

I believe the GAD series are made in China. Definitely asian of some sort.

[Blues Hurler]

Just checked the label inside mine. "Handcrafted in China" but I'll tell you it's neat as a pin in there. Not a speck of glue or any other sort of sub-par workmanship to be seen. It is noticeably heavier than a Martin (is rosewood heavier than mahogany?) but it does sound pretty nice and the workmanship is excellent. Nice neck and easy to play, too. I've continued to look since buying mine (when am I ever NOT looking at gear?) and I've still never found anything to beat it for anything close in price.

[studio1087]

Larrivees? Do they have solid Rosewood bodied, spruce top models that are affordable?

That's the 3 series. A regular 3 (mahagony) wll cost about $800 and a 3R (rosewood) will be about $950. If you want punchy top end, you want mahagony. Mahagony is focused and punchy. Rosewood is warmer.

The 3's have light braces and nitro. They sound very open from day one (like a Martin 16). When they really open up, they are fantastic. I like nitro and scalloped braces. I think that poly muffles a guitar. I have Martin 15's and 16's and the Larrivee 3 and a Taylor 214. Satin finish in Nitro is my favorite. I've never been a full gloss acoustic guy. I like the feel of the wood.

My L-03R........(sitka & rosewood).....

[Colo Springs E]

Originally Posted by studio1087

That's the 3 series. A regular 3 (mahagony) wll cost about $800 and a 3R (rosewood) will be about $950. If you want punchy top end, you want mahagony. Mahagony is focused and punchy. Rosewood is warmer.

The 3's have light braces and nitro. They sound very open from day one (like a Martin 16). When they really open up, they are fantastic. I like nitro and scalloped braces. I think that poly muffles a guitar. I have Martin 15's and 16's and the Larrivee 3 and a Taylor 214. Satin finish in Nitro is my favorite. I've never been a full gloss acoustic guy. I like the feel of the wood.

.....and very consistent in my opinion. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one sight unseen if I trusted the seller.

In my opinion, Rosewood typically has a boomier bass, which I personally prefer.