Irish Music

[dubnluvn]

I've been playing bluegrass for a few months and have gotten the basic gist of it, but what I really want to do is play some good ole hard drivin' (and not so hard drivin) Clancy Brothers type Irish tunes. A lot of people say its just a bluegrass strum and for some songs its true but for most there is something else that is in there and I just haven't developed my ear enough to know what it is. Any suggestions? Feel free to opine with anything related to irish music that you think would be helpful to a beginner.

Not so hard drivin' but Liam picks it up toward the end, but just a hell of a song:

[crawdad]

Like bluegrass or blues, you just need to dive into the musical tradition and listen to a lot of Irish music. You will find beautiful music and dark music. Its a music full of stories and passion. Search for all the "classic' tunes and also look for the more modern ones. Irish music is a music unto itself.

A good Irish band that I know:

http://www.blackthorn1.com/

Their CD, First Light, is fantastic. Two are Irish immigrants that came to the States. Woderful musicianship, songs and taste.

[dubnluvn]

Well, I'm pretty familiar with the music and culture. I grew up in an Irish family and know a lot about the history and what is behind a lot of the lyrics and such. I'm just new to making my own music. I've only been playing guitar for a bit over 6 months and its the first instrument I've ever learned to play. So I really dig the music but I just don't know the technicalities of it. I know music is more feel than tech in general but there have to be some guidelines that get you started. Thats what I'm looking for. BTW thanks for the link, I listened to a couple of tracks and they sound really good.

[PK]

Ventura? I'm here too! My advice is call Phil Salazar and have him give you lessons! He's great! (805)701-2508. Phil has been teaching my son and I for almost 2 years. He makes the lessons fun, and he can teach you any style you like.

PK

[charlie chitlin]

The vocal "songs" are very different fron the traditional "tunes" as are generally played at "sessions" with fiddle, whistle, uilleann pipes, etc.
Check out some Chieftans.
Those traditional jigs, reels, etc. can move like a freight train!
Traditionally, the guitar is tuned DADGAD for that stuff, and much of it has a strong "2" feel using mostly downstrokes.
Guitar is a fun way to play this music because you generally play the chords, so, once you learn to hear the changes, you can play on most tunes.
The other instruments generally play the tune, so if you don't know it, you just have to sit out; unless it's a rhythm instrument like bodhran or bones.
Even the 4-string banjo and bazouki almost invariably play single note melody rather than strumming chords.

[Guy-Paul]

Hi Celtic music lovers
Anything Irish, you said?
Try to dig at Shanachie music. I don't know if they carried the Clancy Brothers, or their music though , but that's the place to look for something Irish. That and Green Linnet.
As Charlie mentions, you can't escape the Chieftains. Their 4 early albums were the best, most traditional. They tend to water it down a bit, later on. If you want good irish singing though, try their album with Van Morrison, done just a little before Derek Bell died.
Brendan Nolan is a singer who used to do the pub circuit in Montreal Can. He made a few album, difficult to find maybe, but maybe not with the web. He's got a great voice and plays well too. He also has that type of "warm up the house" songs as the Clancy's.
But my favorite groups are still the Bothy Band, and the Boys of the Lough, maybe De Danaan too. These three groups mingled traditional dance music and songs
Some albums of Kevin Burke where Michael O'Dohmnail sings (some in gaelic, some in english) and plays a tasty guitar too are for the more contemplative.
Anybody heard Duck Baker fingerpicking irish fiddle tunes? Not only chords, guys and girls, but pure irish tunes, some Carolan too (old irish troubadour).
And for nice guitar support, the best I heard so far was Paul Brady on Tommy Peoples' High part of the road. Not only strumming chords there, I can assure you. It is true that you can support a solo player with that approach, but usually better players require a better backup. Just listen to Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn of De Danann on their solo album and you will hear a fiddle and a bouzouki constantly talking to each other, even if the fiddle is the tune and bouzouki the accomp.
I can't keep my mouth shut if I hear the magic word Irish. Must have a leprechaun in my ancestors.

[blue metalflake]

I'm not familiar with all the bands mentioned so far, but certainly most are on the button.

If you're after songs, then the Clancy Bros or Dubliners are good examples of the style. More modern examples would be artists like Christy Moore, Four Men and a Dog, Paul Brady, Pogues. Incidentaly Paul Brady has done some work with an excellent guitarist called Arty McGlynn. Artie played country ( with a Tele) before moving into traditional music, and is well worth a listen.

The guitar as such hasn't a big history in irish music before '60s. predominant instruments have been fiddle & banjo (4 string variety) also flute and accordian.

Music is mainly reels, jigs, hornpipes, set dances, and its easy to see the bluegrass links if you listen to it a while. Theres the "session" type, where a group will play (frequently in pub) with little or no prior practice. Some of the later groups have captured this style - Planxty & to some extent the Chieftains. Chieftains have crossed into so many genres. You tube features many artists with them - Van Morrison, Earl Scruggs, many many more.

The other side of the music is the ceili band, which is more formal, for dancing. Typically accordian, drums, fiddle, banjo, sometimes flute & piano, would have been traditional. You Tube search for ceili band will give you some good examples. Look out for Gallowglass, Temple House, Sean Norman as names. If you see the spelling Ceilidh, thats scottish, and the music is very similar.

I started off playing ceili style music on a mandolin (my hands were too small for anything else at 9 ) probably with the idea of playing banjo eventually. Moved to guitar at 12, and took a lot of the music with me. Always found traditional music great as a warm up, and some bands I played in would have featured a few in the set.

Like most other music, theres so many angles to it, and would need a while to get the feel of it. If you try the names suggested on Y T & follow a few of the links, you should get a fair cross section of the stuff.

[Bob Marlec]

If you want to take things from the beginning of the seventies , please check those videos of the great pioneers :

Arty McGlynn & Paul Brady :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzE439U5iMI

Andy Irvine & Paul Brady :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1l8hSBqS3E

Andy Irvine & Paul Brady :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad8RVexRUoQ

Please ask if you want some more!

[Seanycaster]

As blue metalflake says, you ought to check out Christy Moore. Some of his stuff is really inspirational. And his version of Fairytale of New York is amazing.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=t-rGdQTVgrU

[dubnluvn]

once again, thanks for the recommendations. But what I;m having trouble with is the technical aspect more specifically the strumming patterns and how it relates to some oif the odd time sigs they use. Like bluegrass. You can strum the song anyway you want but to get the real sound and feel you use the pluck strum technique. I wouldn't have known unless someone told me. I'm really just learning to play guitar and although I recognize that something different than what I know is going on I don't know how to do it or understand what or why. Am I making any sense? Kinda, like a pitcher throwing a curve. If you know nothing about baseball you still recognize that the pitch was different but you have no idea how he did it. Thats kinda where I am at.

[Tim Bowen]

I really don't know much about the techniques. For me, it 's mostly about getting within the melodies and grooves of Irish and Scottish tunes... bluegrass is largely based upon original Celtic formats of jigs and reels, but then, I've no call to play the original tunes verbatim, other than for teaching purposes; I love the sound though, and find myself calling upon such more and more for arrangements. A few staples: "Star of the County Down" (Irish, 3/4); "Flowers of Edinburgh" (Scottish, 2/4); "Battle of Augrim" (Irish, 4/4).

[blue metalflake]

Originally Posted by dubnluvn

once again, thanks for the recommendations. But what I;m having trouble with is the technical aspect more specifically the strumming patterns and how it relates to some oif the odd time sigs they use.

I know what you're getting at, but its like explaining quantum physics in two lines.

Lots of the strumming is like bluegrass, 4/4 time, and built around a fairly basic "chick a boom" strum, or sometimes a "chick boom, chick a boom" rhythm. What makes it sound different, is that sometimes only the off beat will be struck for a few beats, or only the beat. The variations of this are very effective and hard to follow, and sometime give players a very unique sound. I've never picked up any set patterns - its distinctive to a particular tune. This would apply to reels, hornpipes, some set dances.

Jigs are basically 6/8, and I cannot simply put the usual strumming patterns into words - maybe someone else can help. This beat is even more open to different accents and skips, and much harder to follow.

Just realised this probably won't help much - its like riding a bike - you can do it, but could never put the how to do it into words.

Do stick at it, and you'll be rewarded with some great music.

[Bob Marlec]

Some useful links to learn Irish music, from Michael Eskin :

http://www.tradlessons.com/

http://www.tradlessons.com/?cat=17

http://members.cox.net/eskin/DADGAD.html

http://members.cox.net/eskin/dropd.html

http://members.cox.net/eskin/index.html

[Bob Marlec]

On this link you can find a long discussion about Irish strumming :

http://www.thesession.org/discussion...10782/comments

There are two strumming patterns for backing irish jigs (6/8, 9/8, or 12/8) :
for each bar :

| down up down down up down | aka | dud dud |

or

| down up down up down up | aka | dud udu |

none is better than the other, you can mix the two patterns along a tune.

If you watch this video of Bothy Band, the founders of irish band music (with Chieftains and Planxty), you can see Donal Lunny (bouzouki) using the first pattern and Micheal O'Domhnaill (guitar) using the other :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjS2ExtzvII

The same theory fits for backing or for the melody.

[dubnluvn]

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT!!!!

Thanks so much!!!

dub

[Bob Marlec]

Once you have mastered the basic strumming over several time signatures, it will be the time to talk about triplets, grace notes, rolls, slurs, cran and so on.

[blue metalflake]

Originally Posted by Bob Marlec

On this link you can find a long discussion about Irish strumming :

http://www.thesession.org/discussion...10782/comments

There are two strumming patterns for backing irish jigs (6/8, 9/8, or 12/8) :
for each bar :

| down up down down up down | aka | dud dud |

or

| down up down up down up | aka | dud udu |

none is better than the other, you can mix the two patterns along a tune.

If you watch this video of Bothy Band, the founders of irish band music (with Chieftains and Planxty), you can see Donal Lunny (bouzouki) using the first pattern and Micheal O'Domhnaill (guitar) using the other :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjS2ExtzvII

The same theory fits for backing or for the melody.

That sums it up perfectly - I couldn't get it into words.

Its when the 6/8, 12/8 get mixed, with a few drops & stops, that it really gets going.

[Bob Marlec]

with a few drops & stops, that it really gets going.

you can also use muted chords (left hand muting), palm muting (right hand muting), ghost notes, triplets, whatever you want to enhance the rythmic backing.
The guitar is a melodic, harmonic and rythmic instrument.

[John Thigpen]

John Doyle has an Irish Rhythm Guitar DVD on Homespun that's supposed to be pretty good. You can get it on Amazon in addition to a lot of guitar sources, for $29.95 or so.

John

[Paul in Colorado]

Originally Posted by John Thigpen

John Doyle has an Irish Rhythm Guitar DVD on Homespun that's supposed to be pretty good. You can get it on Amazon in addition to a lot of guitar sources, for $29.95 or so.

John

This is one of the best Irish guitar videos available. Also check out Richard Thompson's Homespun audio CD's. I have a basic Irish guitar video that's good too. I'll have to dig it out and post the name and all here.

[Bob Marlec]

The work of John Doyle is underpresented on Youtube but you can nonetheless see a part of his rythmic work on these videos

2006 with a wig :



1994 with real hair :



P.S. He plays usually tuned in dropped D

[Bob Marlec]

A young guitarist shows you a typical backing with a DADGAD or dropped D tuned guitar (don't forget to listen the whistle and the flute!)

A set of reels (tuned in DADGAD):



A set of jigs (tuned dropped D) (John Doyle style):



This bad boy can also play bouzouki , flute, uileann pipes...

Next time, let's speak about Pierre Bensusan.