Tuning issue with Martin D-15, could use some advice

[Camplain]

A little history... I got this guitar a couple of years ago, it played in tune but had a slightly high action.... I took the guitar to a well regarded local hobbyist to get a setup... when I got the guitar back the action was ok, but the guitar didn't play in tune like it used to...

I decided if I want my guitars set up properly I better learn how to do it myself... I've learned a lot over the past couple years, I feel confident doing everything but fret leveling and nut work, actually, I've just ordered my first set of nut files from StewMac and the D-15 is supposed to be my first shot at doing nut work... if the nut is the problem that is

THE PROBLEM

I can either tune the guitar for most open chords... E, A, C... pretty much any chord that has an open E on the first string... D gets a little out of tune, but it's tolerable... but if I go for a G chord... the high G note is waaaaay flat... and it just gets worse the further up the neck I go... if I tune the small E string sharp the open G chord sounds fine, but all the other open chords are off....

This is really strange to me because if the nut is the issue I'd expect the off notes to be sharp rather than flat, and the problem to be closer to the nut... still, I can't rule the nut out because if I throw on a capo and tune up it plays in tune... I've replaced the saddle with a Bob Colosi FWI hoping that would help things... it did not.... I may have accidentally sanded the treble side a tiny bit lower than the bass side, but I wouldn't think that would cause such a big tuning issue way down on the third fret... besides, the problem was there before I switched saddles...

I realize a guitar is never going to be perfectly in tune, but this is more than the norm... it's like the 3 bass strings are near perfect, but the treble strings get worse as they get smaller.... G and B get slightly out, but for the most part they're ok unless I play up the neck and try to throw in a few open notes.... for example if I want to play on the G string high up the neck and have a drone D ring, I have to bend my fretted notes somewhere around an 1/8 sharp to get in tune...... I just don't know what to make of it... I should add that as far as wear, the frets look great. and the relief seems about right, a little more than my electrics have... but not a crazy amount...

I'd appreciate any advice.... it's really got me puzzled

[Bob W.]

Just off hand, it sounds like the bridge placement is wrong, but that seems unlikely on a guitar that used to play in tune. Does it still have the original saddle? It seems as if the strings are a bit too long at the bridge end, especially on the treble side. This isn't something that I've ever seen on a Martin...

[Camplain]

Originally Posted by Bob W.

Just off hand, it sounds like the bridge placement is wrong, but that seems unlikely on a guitar that used to play in tune. Does it still have the original saddle? It seems as if the strings are a bit too long at the bridge end, especially on the treble side. This isn't something that I've ever seen on a Martin...

Thanks,

I still have the original saddle in one of my bins of guitar parts, but I'm pretty sure the guy who did the first setup sanded it down, the Colosi I replaced it with is your typical Martin compensated style....

I really hope there's something that can be done, but if it's that the scale is off that's very very bad... like you I have a hard time thinking the bridge is out of place given it used to play in tune... maybe the neck shifted, I guess a change in angle could be to to blame.... the joint looks tight though... I think it's time for this face again

[tfsails]

Perhaps your guy filed the slots in the nut at the wrong angle. Nut slots are supposed to be angled so that the edge of the slot closest to the fingerboard is the first contact the string makes with the nut. The slots then are angled more or less parallel to the headstock angle relative to the rest of the neck.

If the slot bottoms are parallel to the fingerboard, it's possible for the string to make contact at different and varying points within the nut which serves to make the string longer (flatter) or shorter (sharper), which would make the string damn near impossible to tune consistently to pitch.

Carving a new nut isn't difficult, but it's tedious. I've done three now, two on my Stratocaster and one on a cheap Yamaha Strat copy. Obviously, the first one on my Strat wasn't right; I carved its replacement after doing the Yamaha and getting it more or less right. I took great care on all three to angle the slots so there was some break angle and that the contact point was the fingerboard edge of the nut. I just cut the two E string slots too close to the edge of the fingerboard on the first Strat nut and tended to pull the high E off the neck when I played the guitar.

If you're halfway skilled with tools you can carve a nut. It really does pay to have the right tools to do this, though. You probably won't ever get them to pay for themselves unless you carve five or six nuts, but the satisfaction of doing it yourself is worth it.

Good luck! Hope this helps some. I suggest you get the book "Guitar Player Repair Guide" by Dan Earlewine. He breaks just about all tasks down to their simplest form and explains what's happening pretty well.

[Camplain]

tfsails, you may have hit the nail on the head with that one... it played in tune to start with, that makes me think the bridge is mounted and cut properly... If he left the rear of the slot a little higher than the front the contact would be on the backside of the nut making the string flat... thanks so much for the suggestion, it's given me hope.

I've ordered a full set of gauged nut files from StewMac with the rounded edge... first thing I'll do when I get the files will be adding a little downward angle to the back of the slots, I'm feeling confident that will do the trick, we'll see

I really want to get to the point where I can cut my own nuts, and do fretwork... I'd love to open up a shop in the area eventually... right now the nearest shop is over an hour away... I actually called to ask if they had an in house luthier or could direct me to one... the response "what's a lu...luthen... luther.... what you said?"... knew right away I'd be better off learning to do my own work... it's amazing how many people around here don't even realize most mediocre, or even awfull playing guitars can be made into something great with just a little work... I get a big thrill out of learning these skills, certainly worth the cost of good tools to me.

[studio1087]

Originally Posted by tfsails

Perhaps your guy filed the slots in the nut at the wrong angle. Nut slots are supposed to be angled so that the edge of the slot closest to the fingerboard is the first contact the string makes with the nut. The slots then are angled more or less parallel to the headstock angle relative to the rest of the neck.

If the slot bottoms are parallel to the fingerboard, it's possible for the string to make contact at different and varying points within the nut which serves to make the string longer (flatter) or shorter (sharper), which would make the string damn near impossible to tune consistently to pitch.

Carving a new nut isn't difficult, but it's tedious. I've done three now, two on my Stratocaster and one on a cheap Yamaha Strat copy. Obviously, the first one on my Strat wasn't right; I carved its replacement after doing the Yamaha and getting it more or less right. I took great care on all three to angle the slots so there was some break angle and that the contact point was the fingerboard edge of the nut. I just cut the two E string slots too close to the edge of the fingerboard on the first Strat nut and tended to pull the high E off the neck when I played the guitar.

If you're halfway skilled with tools you can carve a nut. It really does pay to have the right tools to do this, though. You probably won't ever get them to pay for themselves unless you carve five or six nuts, but the satisfaction of doing it yourself is worth it.

Good luck! Hope this helps some. I suggest you get the book "Guitar Player Repair Guide" by Dan Earlewine. He breaks just about all tasks down to their simplest form and explains what's happening pretty well.

^^^This is it. I have a D15 and a OOO15. Both have bone nut & saddles. I will encourage you to take the guitar to a good luthier who works in or owns a Martin shop and pay the guy to make and install a new bone nut and saddle. The bone blanks, bone shaping work and installation should cost about $90 to $120.

The saddle installation is very easy (after the saddle is made properly).

The nut has to be loosened and knocked out of the slot on the headstock. The new nut has to be fabricated properly and then glued in place. It's tricky. If you have never done this I wouldn't start by trying to bang the nut out of a fine Martin.

Pay a guy who has done this work 1000 times. You're going to spend $60-$80 on bone blanks and nut files anyway.

You have a beautiful guitar there. Pay a good luthier to do it just right. You'll be thrilled when it's all done.

A "hobbyist" did the work last time and now you're having a bad time.



My luthier is worth his weight in gold.

[Jack S]

It sounds to me like you need a good compensated saddle.

[Camplain]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Pay a guy who has done this work 1000 times. You're going to spend $60-$80 on bone blanks and nut files anyway.

You have a beautiful guitar there. Pay a good luthier to do it just right. You'll be thrilled when it's all done.

A "hobbyist" did the work last time and now you're having a bad time.



My luthier is worth his weight in gold.

Thanks for the advice, I agree that it would be best for a bona fide luthier to do the work, trouble is, I don't know of any... if anyone knows of a good one in my area I'd love to hear about them.

When I called the 2 "local" music shops in Monroe LA (about an hour and a half away) one shop didn't know what a luthier was, the other said they have a guy who does setups but they only use micarta for nuts... well call me picky... but if I'm paying someone to put a new nut on they should make it out of what I request.... "I don't want Fop, godnabbit! I'm a Dapper Dan man"

What I plan to do is just try to add a little depth to the rear of the slots... I think I'll be able to do that without removing the nut... that's the part that scares me.... if I have to remove the nut I don't want to chip the finish... I know how to properly remove a nut in theory, just haven't ever done it... makes me wish I hadn't gotten rid of all my cheap guitars, they would have made great guinea pigs

If for some reason I end up having to remove the nut I'll just be very very careful tapping it out... If it has to come out I'll probably get one of those slotted bone nuts from StewMac, should be able to sand the underside down enough to get it close and do the fine tuning with the new nut files... (yes, I've already ordered them, so something is getting filed).... However it ends up, it'll be a valuable learning experience... but geez, why does it have to be on a Martin lol

[Camplain]

The D-15 is fixed and playing the best it ever has!

The nut was indeed the problem. The gauged files came in Saturday and the work went smoothly for the most part... I ended up lowering all of the slots slightly... followed the angle of the headstock to take care of the tuning issues, when the slots were nearly done I came back with a couple of flat passes to keep the contact point from being sharp, it worked out nicely...

There was just one bump in the road.... I got the small E slot a little too deep, not a problem, I had prepared for this sort of thing by ordering some thin super glue, I used shavings from the top of the nut to fill the problem slot, I was surprised at how fast it dried, was able to get back to filing in no time and the second time around I got it right.

The nut had never been shaved down, so the strings were burried really deep in the slots. I went ahead and sanded it down, left my old strings on to act as a guard for the fretboard, also to meter how much I needed to sand off... now the nut has a nice low profile with no sharp edges.

By no means am I a pro yet, but I'm feeling really good about taking the plunge into nut work, and feeling fantastic about being able to play all my chords in tune

I really appreciate the advice you guys gave me, thanks a million

[studio1087]

Very cool.

[vibrasonic]

Try some Big Bens nut sauce it really works for those kind of nut probs. It would'nt hurt even if there's no probs now it keeps it from binding down the road.

[rangercaster]

I took the guitar to a well regarded local hobbyist to get a setup

... there are lots of so-called "professional" techs who have questionable skills !!! ... you are on the right track ... do it yourself !!!

[Sw0rdfish]

Originally Posted by studio1087

Pay a good luthier to do it just right. You'll be thrilled when it's all done..

There seems to be a surplus of hacks good ones are getting hard to find.

[blue metalflake]

Always feels good when you've done something for yourself - especially when it works out!