Acoustic string on electric archtop?

[W4rthog]

Hi everyone. I didn't really know which forum to post this question in but I figured Acoustic Heaven was the most appropriate. I did do a search but couldn't find any threads on a similar topic so I'm hoping someone can offer some advice.

I have an Aria FA65 (http://www.ariausa.com/guitars/fa65.html) that I never play. It's a cheapish chinese-made full-hollow maple-ply archtop. Big (17"), deep body with two PAF-style humbuckers, trapeze tailpiece. Original floating rosewood bridge was replaced with a tuneomatic on a floating rosewood base.

I bought it to play jazz and for years I've had it strung up with standard round-wound electric strings (.10-.46). However, I soon realized that I much prefer my teles for jazz stuff so the Aria has lain neglected. The Aria sounds OK amplified but is acoustically pretty wimpy with these light-guage electric strings.

I play a lot of (unamplified, small coffee-house) acoustic gigs, usually duos or trios, which usually involve two flattop acoustics playing together. Both flattops of course sound similar so I've recently been searching for ways to get a bit of a different acoustic tone to create some different textures.

So my questions are:

1. Can I put a set of heavyish gauge acoustic guitar strings on the archtop without damaging it? Obviously the truss-rod will need tweaking, but will the rest of the guitar take the additional string tension OK?

2. Will this increase the volume/projection of the archtop, acoustically, so that it can keep up with a big dreadnaught without getting completely drowned out?

I must admit this whole thought process has been kinda inspired by the sound Dave Rawlings gets out of his old Epiphone archtop - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x668-BgXDMM

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Tarnisher]

My guess would be that it should work fine, structurally, but why not email Aria and ask them?

The bridge in the pictures on their site is an acoustic bridge, designed to favor transmission of sound to the top over intonation adjustability. That seems like a mark in your favor.

To answer your second question, acoustic strings should definitely increase projection, partially because they're thicker (more mass driving the top), and partially because bronze is louder than nickel. The trade off is that bronze wound strings have less iron, and don't respond as well to pickups. That can cause the treble strings to be much louder than the bass strings. One solution would be to adjust the pickups so they're higher on the bass side. Or you could DR Zebras strings, which are a hybrid of bronze and nickel. They don't sound as good as bronze strings, but they sound better than all nickel strings, and pickups like them better.

You are correct that some truss rod adjustment will be in order, and you'll need to check the bridge placement to adjust the intonation as well.

[63dot]

I have no idea if an "electric" archtop jazz guitar can take regular acoustic strings. However, if you do so then let us know how it sounds and if things hold up OK.

Are there some ultra light gauge bronze or phosphor bronze strings which may be a better fit since you did have a relatively light set of electric guitar strings on it?

Dave Rawlings! He has an amazing sound but I don't really think it has much to do with his archtop as somebody that truly artistic can get "their" sound on just about any guitar. Anyway, the music is truly and utterly inspiring!

[W4rthog]

Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate it. I hadn't even thought about emailing Aria for some reason; I've always found such good advice on TDPRI that I guess I went straight here as my primary source for information!

I guess I'll just give it a try with a set of .12 or .13 acoustic strings and see what happens. Obviously with the holes that are cut into the top for the pickups it won't sound as good as a purpose-built acoustic archtop, but like I said, I'm not playing it much anyway so I might as well experiment on it!

[Greg.Coal]

This site:
http://www.archtop.com/ac_tips.html

Recommends phosphor bronze strings on older archtops; maybe that will give you further encouragement.

Greg

[Sean65]

I tried it on an old Hofner Senator archtop and it's ok but it's not a jazzy sound so I went back to flat wound 12's. Not as loud but the right 'vibe' was present.

[GigsbyBoyUK]

You are missing something here... the archtop in the video was designed and built to be an acoustic guitar. Your Aria was designed and built to be plugged in. It was never intended to sound good or loud unamplified, and I very much doubt whether putting different or heavier strings on it will help much. It will never really be able to compete tone-wise or volume-wise with a purpose built acoustic guitar.

[Berek Halfhand]

Originally Posted by 63dot

Dave Rawlings! He has an amazing sound but I don't really think it has much to do with his archtop as somebody that truly artistic can get "their" sound on just about any guitar. Anyway, the music is truly and utterly inspiring!

Got to talk to David after a concert in a small venue in Pittsburgh several years ago. In regards to his "sound", not only did he have very heavy gauge strings on the Epiphone, the action was also very high. He must have fingers of carbon fiber reinforced with titanium driven by hydrolics.

Both he and Gillian were very warm and personable...

-bh

(They signed my Hohner with "We can only wonder why...")

[63dot]

Originally Posted by GigsbyBoyUK

You are missing something here... the archtop in the video was designed and built to be an acoustic guitar. Your Aria was designed and built to be plugged in. It was never intended to sound good or loud unamplified, and I very much doubt whether putting different or heavier strings on it will help much. It will never really be able to compete tone-wise or volume-wise with a purpose built acoustic guitar.

Being a fan of old Martins, I tend to agree with that.

For an acoustic guitar, better sounds are achieved from the thinnest possible top and the lightest (and often shaved down or scalloped/voiced) bracing. The less wood present in both the top and bracing, the more volume and usually the better the quality of the sound on any given set of strings.

Making a thin top and lightweight bracing takes extra time, cost, and expertise, with the best being done by hand, and these are totally not necessary for guitars which are to be amplified by a pickup. And anything with a thin top and very light bracing can come into feedback at much lower volumes so it makes sense to save time and money and make electric archtop guitars with medium to thicker tops and unscalloped heavy bracing. The sound will derive from the pickups and amp.

For the old acoustic archtops and flattops, it makes the most sense to have the thin top and scalloped bracing. Some older guitars like my Martin were very prone to warping but they had a much better sound than later Martins with thicker tops and regular bracing.

There are some exceptions to the thin top rule as some Guilds are built with tops so thick they resemble Ovation acoustic electrics in their tank like construction and the Guilds can sound like a finely tuned vintage Martin given enough time (older models) and an appropriately heavy gauge of strings. One electric out there with a very thin top and nice and thin voiced bracing are the Godin electric archtops and they seem to avoid feedback very well. Part of it is the plastic bridge which absorbs feedback prone vibrations and the Godin pickups which are made for their guitars.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by Berek Halfhand

Got to talk to David after a concert in a small venue in Pittsburgh several years ago. In regards to his "sound", not only did he have very heavy gauge strings on the Epiphone, the action was also very high. He must have fingers of carbon fiber reinforced with titanium driven by hydrolics.

Both he and Gillian were very warm and personable...

-bh

(They signed my Hohner with "We can only wonder why...")

For the small bodied acoustics, sometimes the great equalizer against full sized dreadnaughts and full sized archtops is to have heavier strings and higher action. The mids are enhanced and with the higher highs inherent in small bodied guitars, they are great for acoustic lead.

It does take strong fingers to shoulder both higher gauges and higher action but the payoff is tremendous as it is on an electric like SRV's strats with 12s with somebody who can handle them. I heard it rumored (and read in a magazine) that he had one or more modified by his guitar tech with a dual truss rod setup similar to some Rickenbackers.

[rsclosson]

I used to use acoustic string on a Heritage Eagle (Mahogany body, Spruce top) and it sounded absolutely great! I ran into the issue with the first two strings being louder amplified. I added a compressor and it smoothed out the string balance issue beautifully.

[jazztele]

Here's the deal:

The Aria, as others have mentioned, is a laminate jazz box...with two routed pickups...and you have a tune-o-matic on it...not exactly an acoustic tone machine, whatever strings you put on it. And of course, another problem will arise--you're going to sound imbalanced if you plug in now, as those pups were not designed with bronze strings in mind...

I love the sound of an acoustic archtop...it's a very different sound than a flattop (sounds nothing like a dread--thank god!) and a lot of folks are turned off by it because they're not expecting it...

A plugged in archtop is often associated with that round, warm, somewhat dark "jazz" tone...but an unamplified acoustic archtop is almost the exact opposite! Punchy highs and mids, not really "mellow" at all (although mellow tones can be coaxed out if you know how to hit 'em right)

The best acoustic archtop tones come from solid wood boxes with wooden bridges and no pickups stuffed into holes in the top...and of course, because nothing in life is easy, these beautiful acoustics are often a bee-yatch to amplify...

So give it a shot, if you like...don't expect too much, but don't worry about the guitar handling it either...

My advice, though...check out John Pearse Nickel Wound acoustic strings...put some .13's on her, jack the action up a little bit (make sure you can still play the darn thing!) and enjoy.

[W4rthog]

Thanks for the responses guys.

You are missing something here... the archtop in the video was designed and built to be an acoustic guitar. Your Aria was designed and built to be plugged in. It was never intended to sound good or loud unamplified, and I very much doubt whether putting different or heavier strings on it will help much. It will never really be able to compete tone-wise or volume-wise with a purpose built acoustic guitar.

Just to clarify, I'm not expecting a new set of strings to give it anything like the tone of a nice, purpose-built acoustic archtop. It's more just an idle experiment because I honestly never play the Aria. It just gathers dust at the moment. I know it was designed to be plugged in. Although to be honest if I ever got a chance to meet the designers I'd definitely ask them why they thought it was a great idea to put such a hot set of HBs on a feed-back prone deep hollow-body. Another reason it never gets gigged at the moment! Even with the pickups set way down from the strings I feel like I'm tip-toeing on the edge of that horrible honking feeback that only a hollow-bodied instrument can produce!

Making a thin top and lightweight bracing takes extra time, cost, and expertise, with the best being done by hand, and these are totally not necessary for guitars which are to be amplified by a pickup. And anything with a thin top and very light bracing can come into feedback at much lower volumes so it makes sense to save time and money and make electric archtop guitars with medium to thicker tops and unscalloped heavy bracing. The sound will derive from the pickups and amp.

The top on the Aria is indeed pretty thick, which I agree is going to hamper its acoustic properties. Well, I've got a set of 13s so I'll give it a go and see what happens. I'll also swap the bridge back to the original floating rosewood bridge. Thanks everyone who took the time to offer advice.

[63dot]

Originally Posted by W4rthog

Thanks for the responses guys.


The top on the Aria is indeed pretty thick, which I agree is going to hamper its acoustic properties. Well, I've got a set of 13s so I'll give it a go and see what happens. I'll also swap the bridge back to the original floating rosewood bridge. Thanks everyone who took the time to offer advice.

If your Aria is unusual like some Guilds, which should never sound good with such thick tops and heavy bracing but still sound good, then you will luck out.

You will get some volume, of course, with bronze strings and the Aria archtop. The issue will be if acoustic strings could vibrate that thick top and probably thick bracing, even with nice rosewood bridge, and also compensate for lost tone and volume due to cutouts for humbuckers.

What you may have is (for comparison purposes), is a guitar that is nearly the size of a full on dreadnaught, but due to top/bracing/routing, get only the sound of a 00 sized steel string acoustic. I had a nice 00-17 Martin but when paired with some full sized dreadnaughts, it was drowned out. Your Aria may sound good and to make it all work, may do well with a great mic and PA to bring out the lower volume. There are players with 00s and 000s who mic their stuff quite nicely, even with the lower volume and cut through the mix. Just take your unique guitar's signature, mic it, and work it into live and recording sessions. Anyway, good luck and give us a sound sample if you can. I am curious!

[W4rthog]

For those who wanted an update....

... put a set of 82/20 bronze acoustic strings on it, .013 guage.

The volume increased significantly, could be heard along with small parlour guitars but was drowned out by jumbos and dreads.

Plugged it in, just for chuckles and was surprised by how good it sounded through an amp with the acoustic strings. Better than it ever has with roundwound or flatwound electric strings of any guage. Way better. Of course, the wound strings were way down in volume compared with the unwound, so I jacked up the pickups on the bass side, lowered them on the treble side and manage to find some balance in the volume between wound/unwound strings.

So I didn't achieve the result I wanted. But I achieved a result!

Thanks again for the advice everyone.

[Stratburst]

I'd say stay with the heavier acoustic strings but get nickel-wound instead of bronze. I use GHS Boomer 13 - 56 on my Godin archtop and they sound great both amplified and unplugged.

[Steveareno]

GHS White Bronze. Use 'em on my acoustics, including archtop. They look like an electric nickel string, but sound like bronze and have good magnetic properties for pickups. Good volume and tone, plus they last a long time. Can't stand those gold/brown, regular bronze strings (feel like a hippie/folksinger).
Swang on,