The Martin top-shelf - who likes ebony fingerboards?

[tomfarnan]

I've had a 000-42 Marquis for a few months now. I have started to pay more attention to tonewoods and am learning about their acoustic subtleties. A few days ago I dropped into a local Martin dealer to try some of their D-18s from standards to Golden era and Authentic. While I was there I also had a play of a D-28 Marquis too.

I don't deny that they are wonderful guitars I feel that I'd like a bit more warmth to add complexity. The adirondirack tops and ebony fretboards (plus ivory binding) while impressive investments from the builders just seem like tone overkill to me. Such a big almost overrich tone. I feel like backing off the fretboard to rosewood might make the guitar warmer while still responsive and complex.

Does anyone agree or disagree?

Might they mellow with age?

- are ebony fretboards t with adirondirack spruce tone overkill?

[brookdalebill]

I have a D35 and a Southern Jumbo.
To my ears, they are very different sounding guitars.
The 35 has lots of highs and lows, the SJ has lots of mids.
I love em' both.
Maybe try different strings.
Coated strings sound warm/dull to me.
I find Adirondak spruce takes time to "wake up".
Maybe the 000-42 is not the "one" for you.

[tcarp]

Maybe try different strings

Or a different pick if you're not a fingerstylist.

I needed a string change on my D18 and the shop was out of my prefered, Ernie Ball Earthwoods, so I put on a set of JPs.....I wasn't at all happy with the tone, so I switched to a heavier nylon pick and the sound warmed up immediately. It's only a stop gap until I can find EBs again, but it'll work for now.

Tom

[imwjl]

I've played and owned OM-21 and OM-28V and own 00-18V, played D, 000 and OM 18s I am not sure the fingerboard makes a difference in the way backs and bracing will.

I've also played and considered similar guitars with Adirondack and Englemann tops, played cedar. Adironack tops do seem a bit more percussive and I seemed to like them on D and OM guitars more than smaller, best on D.

I do know how Gorgomyte cloth cleans rosewood fingerboard like nothing else and was not sure I liked it when a luthier doing a setup put Ducks axe stuff on ebony board.

An absolute Martin nut friend who knows them well and has 10 is convinced some Adirondack tops from factory guitars are tight or not as great as they could be because they are not braces specifically for it.

I do not follow wood and bracing details like he he does but paid more attention with my recent SCGC purchase. I found the video below after I made my purchase but found it interesting after I found that only some of the expensive factory guitars were superb and all the small shop offerings of similar price were. It got me thinking that care of build and tuning count for more than I thought.

It doesnt' have to be a SCGC but my guitar and this video got me thinking that who and how it is put together is as important as the wood.

[bradpdx]

I've played mainly Martins all my life, and presently have an HD-28 and a 000-16GT. I tend to prefer ebony more due to the way it feels that any particular tone qualities - given all the variables, it's hard to say exactly what it does, all else being the same.

It seems like the OP is mainly bugged by the overtones and harmonics he hears on his 000-42. I'll say this - in general, high end rosewood bodied guitars tend to have a whole lot more harmonics and "piano like" sound when compared with mahogany, and this is hardly news.

My HD-28 is loaded with overtones, as a big rosewood box should be. This makes it really fun to play in some settings and makes it a mess in others. Likewise, the 000-16GT (and other model 18 Martins I have owned) sounds much drier and more focused, which makes them better for some things and worse for others.

While they both sound very much like Martins (as opposed to Gibsons, for example) I use them for different things, especially in the studio. The 000-16GT is great for thinner rock rhythm parts and single note leads, while the HD-28 provides a much bigger sort of rhythm sound that is perfect for bluegrass and country. Single note work on the HD-28 is always "pretty" and never "tough" like the 000-16GT.

For some players, that "dry" sound is all they need or want, and so a fancy rosewood guitar is simply of no use. Cheaper mahogany works just fine, end of story, no need to spend more. Sounds to me like the OP would have been happier with perhaps a D-18 than a 000-42 in the Martin line.

I'll add one last thing - if I had to have only one acoustic guitar to live with, it would be a good Martin D-18. Probably with an ebony fingerboard. It's dry but it's big.

[allen st. john]

Here's what you have to realize. For a variety of reasons, Adirondack spruce needs time and playing to "open up" and realize its full sonic potential. This process can take many months, and continue over the course of many years. In short, your guitar is still a work in progress, and it's bound to change, probably in ways that will be appealing to your ears.

I'd also try experimenting with strings. I like 80/20s on my Martins, but they tend to be a little harsh when they're first installed and mellow out as they age.

FWIW, the ebony fingerboard (or any fingerboard material) has almost no effect on the tone. The bridge material might be a little more important, but honestly you're still talking about a really tiny, subtle difference.

[Nodremark]

How much time does it take to "open up" Adirondack spruce? Does anyone have first hand knowlede of the device used to age a guitar? Tone something or other. When I first saw it I was sure it was a gimmick designed to catch those of us that know no better.
I do not intend to high-jack this thread. But I thought it might be an option for the OP

[BigDaddyLH]

Originally Posted by allen st. john

FWIW, the ebony fingerboard (or any fingerboard material) has almost no effect on the tone. The bridge material might be a little more important, but honestly you're still talking about a really tiny, subtle difference.

Supposedly, ebony is brighter sounding than rosewood. But for me, I find ebony (or was it just the ebony fingerboard I played?) smoother and slicker than rosewood. I also like the jet-black look better, so my preference is obvious.

[DMace]

I love the feel of the fretboard on my HD-28..and the sound. From what I've read, an Adirondack top does take time to open up, but I don't know how long. The Martin forum is a terrific resource for information, btw. You might run a search there, if you're curious.

[P Thought]

My dreadnought is a Takamine, not a Martin, but I like the look (black) and feel (smooth) of its ebony fretboard. I like it so much I ordered ebony on my Warmoth neck for my partscaster, and I like that, too. I doubt it makes very much difference in tone, though.

[otterhound]

My 00028 has an Ebony board as does my one Esquire homebuild . I like the feel of Ebony very much . Off topic a moment . I am developing a liking for Madagascar Rosewood . Very similar to Ebony . Just play that Adi topped guitar hard , again and again . The more you play it , the sooner it will loosen up as much as it will . Give it some time . Do you like the short scale neck ? Martin makes very few duds . Have you had an EIR Martin before ? Some people just prefer a hog Martin . Wishing you the best , because you have one of them . Could you post some pics ? Would love to see it . Oh yes , try a set of Martin bluegrass strings . Light first three strings , others are heavy . Should get more bass , but you'll still have overtones . 000's have one of the most balanced overall sounds of all Martins to me .

[blue metalflake]

My HD40 has ebony board, spruce top & rosewood sides/back. Big full sound, lots of overtones, and I think has a great balance.

Never managed to fully understand the implication of different woods, but really love this one.

[Strat God]

I have a HD7 and an OMC Aura -both with ebony. I love them.

The time it takes for a top to 'open' is determined by how much you play and the mineral and moisture content in the wood. There is no set time period.

[tomfarnan]

Thanks for all your replies - I'm enjoying the discussion.

My initial thought was based on three bits of observation. Firstly I had the chance to compare a few vintage teles (mostly from the 60s) with a mix of maple and rosewood fretboards. I found the maple to be far brighter while the rosewood tone was warmer, almost honeyed if I can call it that. There seemed to be a demonstrable difference in tone between fingerboards. In these cases the fretboard material seemed to make a demonstrable and defining difference in tone.

My more recent experience was sitting in a room full of top-shelf Martins (which have almost exclusively ebony fretboards) fingerpicking my way through them. I've become particularly interested in D-18s lately - many of my favourite fingerpicking moments seem to have been recorded with these - and so I wanted to try a representative sample.

What I found was that I preferred the tone of the standard D-18. The Golden Era and Authentic (ebony fbs, adirondirack tops, ivory binding) versions seemed to lose the charm of the standard guitar (rosewood fb, sitka top) with all of those extra bells and whistles. There is almost a standard "Martin bells and whistles" tone if you try your way across the range from small to large and from mahogany to rosewood which seems to mostly override the individual characteristics of each instrument. Is what I'm hearing the young Adirondirack spruce not yet broken in? In x-number of years, when the guitar has opened up, will a D-18GE sound like the standard but with more depth and complexity?

The ebony fretboarded / adirondiracked instruments seem to lack warmth too.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by tomfarnan

Thanks for all your replies - I'm enjoying the discussion.

My initial thought was based on three bits of observation. Firstly I had the chance to compare a few vintage teles (mostly from the 60s) with a mix of maple and rosewood fretboards. I found the maple to be far brighter while the rosewood tone was warmer, almost honeyed if I can call it that. There seemed to be a demonstrable difference in tone between fingerboards. In these cases the fretboard material seemed to make a demonstrable and defining difference in tone.

My more recent experience was sitting in a room full of top-shelf Martins (which have almost exclusively ebony fretboards) fingerpicking my way through them. I've become particularly interested in D-18s lately - many of my favourite fingerpicking moments seem to have been recorded with these - and so I wanted to try a representative sample.

What I found was that I preferred the tone of the standard D-18. The Golden Era and Authentic (ebony fbs, adirondirack tops, ivory binding) versions seemed to lose the charm of the standard guitar (rosewood fb, sitka top) with all of those extra bells and whistles. There is almost a standard "Martin bells and whistles" tone if you try your way across the range from small to large and from mahogany to rosewood which seems to mostly override the individual characteristics of each instrument. Is what I'm hearing the young Adirondirack spruce not yet broken in? In x-number of years, when the guitar has opened up, will a D-18GE sound like the standard but with more depth and complexity?

The ebony fretboarded / adirondiracked instruments seem to lack warmth too.

Players will perceive and define "warmth" differently. What I do notice with the mahogany backed instruments is fewer overtones are shimmering after you pick.

If you love a Tele or electric, have finger picking in mind and are liking that mahogany tone you might enjoy trying other body styles. I love my 00-18 because it sits in the lap and arms more like an electric as an example. A friend who is a regular on UMGF has 000-18GE, OM-18GE, M-38 mahogany custom and mahogany back Larrivees in L and 000. We were trading licks on each others guitars recently and I liked the way bare fingers arms and guitar in lap felt with the smaller waist than my dread and those give up little in volume.

If you're looking at the GE series price levels you should also put a SCGC PW series in your lap before you pull the trigger.

[chezdeluxe]

I own a 1989 OOO-28 and owned a 1980 D18 .Style 28 and up have always had ebony boards. Style 18 shifted from ebony to rosewood boards in the late 1940s probably for cost reasons rather than for tone. I prefer the feel of ebony to rosewood and would love to try a D18 with an ebony board however if you can perceive a tone from the standard D18 that you prefer go for it. There are no absolutes in this process.Every good guitar will have its own flavour.

[bowman]

I don't have a Martin, but I do have both acoustic and electric guitars with ebony boards. I like them. I find the harder feel and greater density easier to fret on. I don't find that ebony lends any particular harshness or negative tone to any of my guitars. I think that the fretboard is pretty far down the list of things that impart tone to a guitar - or maybe a better way to say what I mean is that the board is responsible for a smaller percentage of the final tone than several other things probably are.

[DuncanAngus]

I have 2 28 series Martins w/ebony fretboards and an 18 series w/rosewood. I cannot say how much the board material itself effects tone, but no doubt as to tops/sides/backs. If you found a D-18 with an ebony fretboard, you could tell more. For me, it's the feel of the board that makes ebony my choice. Rosewood is beautiful, but at least for me, feels softer than ebony and harder to bend strings on. Ebony feels a lot like maple. Some say it (ebony) adds a brightness to the tone, rosewood warmth. I love it all.

[rangercaster]

rosewood is softer than ebony, but contrary to many opinions, harder than maple ... however, maple is always finished, which changes the equation ...

[Beachbum]

I have never been able to buy into the idea that different fretboard materials change tone to any significant degree. Because the strings rarely if ever actually touch the fretboard wood I don't see how the wood itself can have much effect. When you are playing it may feel like the strings touch the board but what is actually touching is the tips of your fingers. Folks who prefer ebony do so because they like the feel of it on their finger tips.

I'm no expert and this is of course just common sense thinking. For my part I like the ebony boards cause they're purdy.