L.R. Baggs Dual Source (or Fishman?) for 12 string acoustic

[Tim Bowen]

I've never given much thought to Fender acoustics, but I just snagged a Fender 330 12 for 150 bucks that's pretty righteous; plays great, sounds amazing acoustically, intonates well up and down the neck. So I'd like to get a good system for it and start gigging with it as soon as possible. Actually, I played a few tunes on it at a gig over the weekend... I borrowed a George L's pop-in pickup from a store I teach at, just to check out tuning stability and playability in a live setting. The guitar was fine, the pickup was a dog (very midrangey, little presence or sheen).


Does anyone have experience with or opinions on the Baggs Dual Source?

http://www.lrbaggs.com/html/products...alsource.shtml

I'm also interested in the Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend, although the Fishman site does not currently list that exact model, so I'm not sure what's up with that (?).

I like the idea of blending a piezo and a condenser, as well as having some control of the parameters in the soundhole. I know there are other offerings out there, but I've had great success with Baggs and Fishman systems in several instruments, and I've come to understand how those systems play with my rig. So I'm inclined to go with one or the other.

Any particular issues or considerations as to string-to-string volume balance with an undersaddle transducer in a 12 string? Or is it just the usual matter of flat saddle and solid contact?

[FirstBassman]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

The guitar was fine, the pickup was a dog (very midrangey, little presence or sheen).

That is a common problem with acoustic pickups ... the midrange stands out too much and also causes the guitar to sound less acoustic-like.

In fact, Roger McGuinn refuses to play an acoustic/electric and has all of his acoustic instruments mic'ed on stage.

Easy 'solution' of course is to turn down the mids in the EQ.

There is a guy on the PGMusic forum who insists he's found the greatest acoustic p/u in the world which completely eliminates that mid problem and makes the guitar sound exactly like a mic'ed acoustic.

I can go try and look it up.

[basher]

I've had a Dual Source in my old Guild D35 for about 10 years and I couldn't recommend it more highly. It's a great system. Usually I run it straight into the PA without using a preamp, and I get tons of compliments on my tone.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by FirstBassman

That is a common problem with acoustic pickups ... the midrange stands out too much and also causes the guitar to sound less acoustic-like.

Easy 'solution' of course is to turn down the mids in the EQ.

Yeah, it didn't come as a revelation, I wasn't really expecting the pop-in pickup to be a fit for me; I just wanted to check the guitar itself out live first before deciding to further invest in it. I tried lowering the mids and a few other EQ tweaks as well, to no avail... it just didn't speak to me.

[Tim Bowen]

Originally Posted by basher

I've had a Dual Source in my old Guild D35 for about 10 years and I couldn't recommend it more highly. It's a great system. Usually I run it straight into the PA without using a preamp, and I get tons of compliments on my tone.

That's good to hear. I hope you won't mind a few questions. How loud, and what sort of material, do you play at your gigs? Do you set the blend between the transducer and the mic differently for various situations? My research is just getting started, but I've heard that soundhole mics can get out of control in a hurry at stage volumes. 12 string or high-strung is a "set-and-forget" instrument for me, which is why I'm considering a format such as this. My level and EQ settings are all over the map with my standard six string acoustic-electric, so I'm a bit wary of the mic - but I'm not looking at that instrument right now anyway. I would think blend would typically be 70/30 or 80/20 piezo/condenser? Are the soundhole controls easy enough to manipulate on the fly? Is the mic apparatus structurally sound?

Thanks in advance, hope that's not too many questions.

[Paul in Colorado]

I use a Highlander undersaddle pickup in my Taylor 12 string. I use it with a Baggs preamp. I have a jack to add a mic, but never bothered with it 'cause it sounds so good.

[basher]

Hi Tim, sorry to take so long to get back to you.

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

That's good to hear. I hope you won't mind a few questions. How loud, and what sort of material, do you play at your gigs?

I've played this guitar-and-pickup setup in bands that play rock, jazz, and Irish traditional music. I tend not to want massive stage volume; maybe I've been blessed with unusually sensitive drummers.

Do you set the blend between the transducer and the mic differently for various situations? My research is just getting started, but I've heard that soundhole mics can get out of control in a hurry at stage volumes.

The mic in my Dual Source is a condenser encased in a block of foam and mounted on the back of the guitar, so it's not really a soundhole mic per se. The controls are two little wheels for master volume and mic level. The level of the saddle transducer is constant, and you can adjust the amount of the mic signal that goes with it. When I'm sound-checking, I find where the mic level wants to feed back and then roll it back a little. Usually that works out to about 75%. Really, the transducer sounds brilliant on its own. The mic is gravy. I should also say that the output volume on this system is HOT -- I rarely have the volume turned up beyond halfway.

A bit of a design downside is that with the guitar in playing position, you can't really see how high things are turned up. Which is the main reason I don't mess with the controls once I've got them set.

The apparatus is very sound. The worst problem I've had with it is the velcro holding the battery and preamp to the inside of the guitar. I think Baggs has redesigned things since I bought my pickup though.

[Gary in NJ]

I use an LR Baggs setup in my Blueridge BG-160. Mine was a custom order, it uses the stacked humbucker in the forward position of the soundhole and a ribbon pickup under the bridge. I installed the two volume knobs inside the sound hole at the very top.

I really like this set up. Very natural sounding and very resistant to feedback.

I would recommend it 100%.

[Tim Bowen]

Thanks for the replies. The Dual Source is in the guitar, and I played a few numbers on it at a couple of gigs over the weekend. Generally, I thought it sounded fantastic, but I've more tweaking to do. I dialed back lows and mids at the mixer, but there was still a bit of bloom in the lower registers that kept my parts from being as crisp as I'd have preferred, but that's what you get when you carry an instrument straight from the shop to the show with no tweak time. This being the case, I played it safe and stuck with the undersaddle and did not blend in the condenser. I've been gigging acoustic-electric weekly for years and honestly have not ever given the first thought to notching mids, as such has just never been a factor; clearly, it's a very real consideration with this 12 string. I picked up a Baggs Para DI today, which should do the trick nicely. I think that once I've notched out the unwelcome frequencies, I'll have more license to blend.

[billd13]

I have a Fishman Aura ellipse set up in my Gibson True Vintage J185. At about 30% image and 70% pickup, to my ears it sounds just like the guitar does acoustically. The output from this is fed directly into the mising board or into a Fishman Loudbox. i am very happy with this set up.

[franchelB]

I've always had Fishman pickups in my guitars, including the Ellipse Matrix Blend. And I've always like the sound it gave.