Seeking advice on finishes from the builders here...

beach bob · May 12th, 2008, 10:38 PM

I know we have several ace Tele builders here; I'm seeking their opinions. Though I'm not sure if those folks wander over to this acoustic folder... (I haven't, much

)

At any rate...

My picking bud has a Taylor 410, 1998 build as I recall. He is looking to find out the best way (or, really, is there a way?) to overspray the existing spruce top, without disturbing the original finish.

Situation is, he's had three pickers of note put their signatures below the bridge, behind the strings & more or less out of the way of the usual playing areas. The sigs were done with a Sharpie. But at this point he is starting to get some wear on the sigs, and he would very much like to preserve them. Finish is gloss, and is the standard UV cured polyester Taylor has used since '95. Details from the Taylor site follow~

What kind of finish does Taylor use on its guitars?
Since 1995, we've been using a polyester finish which is cured by ultraviolet light. This UV-finish has many advantages over the polyurethane and lacquer-based finishes previously used. It contains as many "solids" as thicker finishes, so a thinner application provides the same protection while allowing for better tone production. It also is clearer, so the wood grain is more distinct; is more user-friendly; is much easier to sand; is more flexible; doesn't produce any cold-checking; allows for aging; and requires a fraction of the curing time (three 23-second passes through the UV oven, versus several days using the old method). Also, because polyester is about 85 percent resin and only 15 percent solvents (almost the exact reverse of the polyurethane ratio), UV-curing it produces a greatly reduced VOC rate - the measure of the "volatile organic compounds" released into the airstream. This environmental bonus earned Taylor Guitars a commendation from the San Diego County Air Pollution Control District.

My bud called Taylor today and basically they told him it can't be done; that nothing would stick to the original finish without it being scuffed up to take a new topcoat (I'm figuring 0000 or 000 steel wool, but of course these would obliterate the signatures).

I know this is a longshot, but this is a very dear friend, and a special guitar (his main player), so I thought I'd ask around and see what could be done ...

Appreciate any input / feedback !

Buckocaster51 · May 12th, 2008, 11:02 PM

Well now there then now...getting something to stick to something that is designed not to have anything stick to it...

I would say it is a crapshoot.

I'll bet there is a reason that the fine folks at Taylor told your buddy what they told him.

If I HAD to try it myself, I would try some glossy lacquer type stuff...DEFT is the first thing that comes to mind.

I'll bet he will be able to scape it right off with a fingernail though...

Good luck.

mojo2001 · May 12th, 2008, 11:53 PM

If you try anything, pre-test to see if it will disolve Sharpie ink.

I know acetone will take it off and Ketone, MEK, etc. might also.

reddogbass · May 13th, 2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

My bud called Taylor today and basically they told him it can't be done; that nothing would stick to the original finish without it being scuffed up to take a new topcoat

So... scuff it!

If it were me, I'd consider a good catalyzed lacquer (Mohawk, Valspar, etc.) Yes the original polyester finish would require sanding for adhesion. But you wouldn't need to sand the "signatures," just close to them.

First however I'd test on another surface. Finish it good (color sand and buff), write on it in Sharpie, and spray. I've sprayed lacquer over Sharpie with no ill affects, but I'd test just the same. You never know.

I'd also consider a water-borne lacquer. This stuff just keeps getting "gooder and gooder." Again though I'd test the Sharpie.

There are other options to consider as well, and I think quite suitable. Ya gotta know that one of them custom bike painters down there has cleared over some "Sharpie" work. Go ask 'em.

beach bob · May 13th, 2008, 09:49 AM

Thanks for the input fellas. It's a fairly large area of siggys, but maybe roughing up the area around them will work.

&

good idea about getting with a custom bike painter! He's in the St. Pete area; there's probably several within 10min. of him.

FWIW there isn't any issue w/ resale value for doing this; he's keeping this one forever.

Preacher · May 13th, 2008, 10:00 AM

Bob, I think the biggest thing to overcome is matching the right topcoat over what you have existing so you don't end up with one finish attacking the other.
The problem with a test is you need to match Taylor finish exactly, and then see if the new coat will not attach the sharpie or the existing finish. And any kind of finish that has Acetone or Methylketone or something like that will mar the Sharpie.

One thing I would maybe recommend is using a clear static stick film over the signatures. They have clear pieces that you can static stick to windows and such and that should protect the sigs and be replaceable as well. Just cut to fit and apply...

beach bob · May 13th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacher

The problem with a test is you need to match Taylor finish exactly, and then see if the new coat will not attach the sharpie or the existing finish. And any kind of finish that has Acetone or Methylketone or something like that will mar the Sharpie.

I did wonder about that, matching the top finish to the original... sorta hard to get some wood w/ a UV cured polyester clearcoat to work with. What I need to find is a 110 or Baby Taylor that some kid busted up, to perform diabolical experiments on

Quote:

Originally Posted by Preacher

One thing I would maybe recommend is using a clear static stick film over the signatures. They have clear pieces that you can static stick to windows and such and that should protect the sigs and be replaceable as well. Just cut to fit and apply...

Mmmm... like those removeable / stick on pick guards? He'll probably think that's too cheesy, & I bet there will be air bubbles out the ying yang... the finish has set some into the spruce. Maybe a big piece of transfer decal material? That might not be too noticable, and would provide some protection. Not that it couldn't get nicked. But then the guitar has its share of playing wear already...

The real issue down the road is, what to do if Tony Rice relents, and signs the dang thing ???

RickG501 · May 13th, 2008, 11:18 PM

Tell your buddy next time he should take a $50 guitar to get sigs put on it. If I felt that strongly about the sigs on that 410 I'd moth ball it and buy another guitar. All this talk about finish over the sigs, and DIY at that, makes me think your likely to screw up not only the signatures but a fine Taylor 410. JMO

Dennis68 · May 14th, 2008, 07:07 AM

I've seen someone else go down this road before who left a guitar with an artists manager to be signed on the inside label. They signed the top of the guitar with a black sharpie in REALLY BIG swirly letters instead. Ruined the guitar.

Your buddy has really only 2 choices here:

1. Live with the signatures.

2. Take the top finish down completely and hope the ink did not penetrate the top wood through the original finish. Otherwise you're looking at a major repair to replace the top which will also in some manner redifine the guitar from what it is right now in terms of sound/tone.

beach bob · May 14th, 2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickG501

Tell your buddy next time he should take a $50 guitar to get sigs put on it. If I felt that strongly about the sigs on that 410 I'd moth ball it and buy another guitar. All this talk about finish over the sigs, and DIY at that, makes me think your likely to screw up not only the signatures but a fine Taylor 410. JMO

I was waiting for a response like this. My bud brought this up to me, since he knew I hang at a couple guitar forums, so I said I'd ask around on the internets. And also since he was basically given the cold shoulder by Taylor. I consider the whole thing a long shot, but yaknow, there's people around here that know a bunch, so I figured no harm in asking. If he's effed, he's effed. So be it.

Anyways it's all talk at this point... I'm just looking for opinions before any action (or if any) is taken. It was his call to have it signed, and so that's what he's got now to deal with. Me, I wouldn't do it to any of my guitars, but talking him out of what he wants to do isn't ... umm ... well. Let's just say it isn't gonna happen

He is, to put it diplomatically, strong willed...

Dennis, my bud likes and wants the sigs. He doesn't want to lose the sigs or refinish the top... This probably leaves us with one option:

1. Live with the signatures. [as it is right now]

I realize that signatures are not what most players would want on their guitar. My bud knows what he wants, and has no regrets. Thanks again for everyone's input.

Colt W. Knight · May 14th, 2008, 06:21 PM

You gotta do like Marty Stuart and let famous people carve their name in the wood with a knife or other such sharp object.

studio1087 · May 14th, 2008, 07:01 PM

I love the TDPRI but you may find additional info in the Luthier's Corner of Acoustic Guitar Magazine's forum......

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

Or the Technical Info section of the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum......

http://www.umgf.com/

I post under johnlg on both of these acoustic forums. Rick Turner of Renaissance Guitars and several other boutique acoustic builders contribute to the AG forum. The UMGF is fantastic.

They may be great additional sources of information.

John

RickG501 · May 14th, 2008, 08:14 PM

BB,
Yeah, I've had friends like that too. I found this guys website today:

http://warnersguitarshop.com/

He's here in OKC, but if you click on the last link on the left side of the page, the one that has pictures some of his repair projects, you'll see some of the acoustic repairs he's done. He does pretty good work. That said you might be able to give him a call and ask him whether or not it's possible to do what your friend wants done...good luck.

beach bob · May 15th, 2008, 07:55 AM

Thanks to all for the resources. I think at this point I'm gonna bat this one back to my bud. I'm going over to his place this weekend so I'll have a chance to assess the situation in person.

May 12th, 2008, 10:38 PM	#1 (permalink)
beach bob Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South Florida Posts: 227	Seeking advice on finishes from the builders here... I know we have several ace Tele builders here; I'm seeking their opinions. Though I'm not sure if those folks wander over to this acoustic folder... (I haven't, much ) At any rate... My picking bud has a Taylor 410, 1998 build as I recall. He is looking to find out the best way (or, really, is there a way?) to overspray the existing spruce top, without disturbing the original finish. Situation is, he's had three pickers of note put their signatures below the bridge, behind the strings & more or less out of the way of the usual playing areas. The sigs were done with a Sharpie. But at this point he is starting to get some wear on the sigs, and he would very much like to preserve them. Finish is gloss, and is the standard UV cured polyester Taylor has used since '95. Details from the Taylor site follow~ What kind of finish does Taylor use on its guitars? Since 1995, we've been using a polyester finish which is cured by ultraviolet light. This UV-finish has many advantages over the polyurethane and lacquer-based finishes previously used. It contains as many "solids" as thicker finishes, so a thinner application provides the same protection while allowing for better tone production. It also is clearer, so the wood grain is more distinct; is more user-friendly; is much easier to sand; is more flexible; doesn't produce any cold-checking; allows for aging; and requires a fraction of the curing time (three 23-second passes through the UV oven, versus several days using the old method). Also, because polyester is about 85 percent resin and only 15 percent solvents (almost the exact reverse of the polyurethane ratio), UV-curing it produces a greatly reduced VOC rate - the measure of the "volatile organic compounds" released into the airstream. This environmental bonus earned Taylor Guitars a commendation from the San Diego County Air Pollution Control District. My bud called Taylor today and basically they told him it can't be done; that nothing would stick to the original finish without it being scuffed up to take a new topcoat (I'm figuring 0000 or 000 steel wool, but of course these would obliterate the signatures). I know this is a longshot, but this is a very dear friend, and a special guitar (his main player), so I thought I'd ask around and see what could be done ... Appreciate any input / feedback !

May 12th, 2008, 11:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 56 Posts: 4,301 1 Photos	Well now there then now...getting something to stick to something that is designed not to have anything stick to it... I would say it is a crapshoot. I'll bet there is a reason that the fine folks at Taylor told your buddy what they told him. If I HAD to try it myself, I would try some glossy lacquer type stuff...DEFT is the first thing that comes to mind. I'll bet he will be able to scape it right off with a fingernail though... Good luck. __________________ "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

May 13th, 2008, 10:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
Preacher Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Oklahoma Age: 40 Posts: 240	Bob, I think the biggest thing to overcome is matching the right topcoat over what you have existing so you don't end up with one finish attacking the other. The problem with a test is you need to match Taylor finish exactly, and then see if the new coat will not attach the sharpie or the existing finish. And any kind of finish that has Acetone or Methylketone or something like that will mar the Sharpie. One thing I would maybe recommend is using a clear static stick film over the signatures. They have clear pieces that you can static stick to windows and such and that should protect the sigs and be replaceable as well. Just cut to fit and apply... __________________ So many guitars... so little time.

May 14th, 2008, 07:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
Dennis68 Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hudson Valley Posts: 757	I've seen someone else go down this road before who left a guitar with an artists manager to be signed on the inside label. They signed the top of the guitar with a black sharpie in REALLY BIG swirly letters instead. Ruined the guitar. Your buddy has really only 2 choices here: 1. Live with the signatures. 2. Take the top finish down completely and hope the ink did not penetrate the top wood through the original finish. Otherwise you're looking at a major repair to replace the top which will also in some manner redifine the guitar from what it is right now in terms of sound/tone. __________________ -Dennis

May 14th, 2008, 07:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
studio1087 Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Near Milwaukee Age: 44 Posts: 3,153 33 Photos	I love the TDPRI but you may find additional info in the Luthier's Corner of Acoustic Guitar Magazine's forum...... http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi Or the Technical Info section of the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum...... http://www.umgf.com/ I post under johnlg on both of these acoustic forums. Rick Turner of Renaissance Guitars and several other boutique acoustic builders contribute to the AG forum. The UMGF is fantastic. They may be great additional sources of information. John __________________ JLG Carry On

May 12th, 2008, 11:53 PM	#3 (permalink)
mojo2001 Tele-Meister Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colonial Virginia Age: 48 Posts: 157	If you try anything, pre-test to see if it will disolve Sharpie ink. I know acetone will take it off and Ketone, MEK, etc. might also.

May 13th, 2008, 09:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
beach bob Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South Florida Posts: 227	Thanks for the input fellas. It's a fairly large area of siggys, but maybe roughing up the area around them will work. & good idea about getting with a custom bike painter! He's in the St. Pete area; there's probably several within 10min. of him. FWIW there isn't any issue w/ resale value for doing this; he's keeping this one forever.

May 13th, 2008, 11:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
RickG501 Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Age: 54 Posts: 637	Tell your buddy next time he should take a $50 guitar to get sigs put on it. If I felt that strongly about the sigs on that 410 I'd moth ball it and buy another guitar. All this talk about finish over the sigs, and DIY at that, makes me think your likely to screw up not only the signatures but a fine Taylor 410. JMO

May 14th, 2008, 06:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
Colt W. Knight Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wyoming Age: 24 Posts: 1,287	You gotta do like Marty Stuart and let famous people carve their name in the wood with a knife or other such sharp object.

May 14th, 2008, 08:14 PM	#13 (permalink)
RickG501 Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Age: 54 Posts: 637	BB, Yeah, I've had friends like that too. I found this guys website today: http://warnersguitarshop.com/ He's here in OKC, but if you click on the last link on the left side of the page, the one that has pictures some of his repair projects, you'll see some of the acoustic repairs he's done. He does pretty good work. That said you might be able to give him a call and ask him whether or not it's possible to do what your friend wants done...good luck.

May 15th, 2008, 07:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
beach bob Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South Florida Posts: 227	Thanks to all for the resources. I think at this point I'm gonna bat this one back to my bud. I'm going over to his place this weekend so I'll have a chance to assess the situation in person.