Why aren't acoustics being "reliced"?

skydawg · March 31st, 2008, 08:38 AM

Title says it all. I just got to wondering.

Telenator · March 31st, 2008, 08:41 AM

An excellent question. Makes perfect sense, yet no one is doing it.

Kinda like "Harmonica Karaoke." Makes perfect sense but no one is doing it.

Derek S · March 31st, 2008, 08:49 AM

Because a reliced acoustic is just a beat up guitar?

On the other hand, a reliced electric gives the buyer the feel of being their favorite rockstar with a seriously expensive piece of wood ....I'm guessing.

pengipete · March 31st, 2008, 08:53 AM

Because they're worth a shed load more money in good nick and because, with very few exceptions, there is far less interest in "vinatge" acoustics because the majority of them that could be associated with or of interste to people involved with blues etc were cheap crappy instruments - how else could those original guys been able to afford them.

There's also the fact that the "vintage" of acoustic guitars doesn't have clear starting points like, say, a Telecaster so you'd need to be looking at a 200 year old instrument to get any real sense of history.

Of course the most obvious reason is that the acoustic hasn't really changed that much during the last hundred years unlike the electrics which have been evolving year on year during many of our lifetimes and have certain "sweet-spots" in their history that people can aim for.

Add to that the fact that there's no real association with any particular brand and any particular musical style and the acoustic guitar's desirability remains focused on its sound rather than on any other side issues.

esteban · March 31st, 2008, 08:57 AM

Glen Hansard of The Frames has an old beat up acoustic... I actually think it looks cool, but IMO relicing an electric, which is just stuff to the finish, hardware, and neck, is "easier" than relicing an acoustic.

http://silver-starlight.net/blog/ima...mes/encore.jpg

stephent2 · March 31st, 2008, 09:01 AM

Well, some are. Here's my Washburn 125th Anniversary Parlor. The buyer's market for high end acoustics is so different, lot's of a-retentive folks where a scratch or end pin jack is sacrilege.

Maestro · March 31st, 2008, 09:03 AM

I think it is because people would be more careful with acoustics since they are more easily damaged than electrics.

Jakedog · March 31st, 2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pengipete

Because they're worth a shed load more money in good nick and because, with very few exceptions, there is far less interest in "vinatge" acoustics because the majority of them that could be associated with or of interste to people involved with blues etc were cheap crappy instruments - how else could those original guys been able to afford them.

There's also the fact that the "vintage" of acoustic guitars doesn't have clear starting points like, say, a Telecaster so you'd need to be looking at a 200 year old instrument to get any real sense of history.

Of course the most obvious reason is that the acoustic hasn't really changed that much during the last hundred years unlike the electrics which have been evolving year on year during many of our lifetimes and have certain "sweet-spots" in their history that people can aim for.

Add to that the fact that there's no real association with any particular brand and any particular musical style and the acoustic guitar's desirability remains focused on its sound rather than on any other side issues.

Actually, there is huge vintage acoustic market, and there have been many construction and design evolutions. There have also been certain woods that are no longer available, or available now in only very short supply. There are just as many factors that figure into the acoustic vintage market as figure into the electric side. There are even the same ol' nitro vs. poly vs. UV cured, etc. finish arguments. Just like electrics, vaules are effected by things like repairs, mods, re-finish jobs, whether or not a piece has it's original case, the list goes on.

Most people who aren't into acoustics as their main instruments though, are unaware of it.

As for why there are no relics, well, there are plenty, but they're all real, and not artificial. I'm not sure why acoustic players/collectors aren't into the relic thing. I never really gave it any thought. I have a pile of acoustic guitars, and do 90% of my gigging and recording with acoustics, but the thought of having a relic never crossed my mind. I don't have any issues with relics, I just never thought about it. The only aging/wear on my guitars is 100% el naturale.

Jake

RickG501 · March 31st, 2008, 09:06 AM

Very cool looking Washburn!

Pengi, World War ll is the starting point. Pre-War Martins go for a ton of dough, condition does affect the price but I've seen some banged up stuff for top dollar.

Big John · March 31st, 2008, 09:10 AM

Well, here's a good one to try and copy .......

pengipete · March 31st, 2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakedog

Actually, there is huge vintage acoustic market, and there have been many construction and design evolutions. There have also been certain woods that are no longer available, or available now in only very short supply. There are just as many factors that figure into the acoustic vintage market as figure into the electric side. There are even the same ol' nitro vs. poly vs. UV cured, etc. finish arguments. Just like electrics, vaules are effected by things like repairs, mods, re-finish jobs, whether or not a piece has it's original case, the list goes on.

Most people who aren't into acoustics as their main instruments though, are unaware of it.

As for why there are no relics, well, there are plenty, but they're all real, and not artificial. I'm not sure why acoustic players/collectors aren't into the relic thing. I never really gave it any thought. I have a pile of acoustic guitars, and do 90% of my gigging and recording with acoustics, but the thought of having a relic never crossed my mind. I don't have any issues with relics, I just never thought about it. The only aging/wear on my guitars is 100% el naturale.

Jake

Thanks Jake. Now I've been sussed and I'll actually have to start knowing what I'm talking about before posting.

I'll read up on that cos it's not something I've come across and it sounds interesting and it would be nice to be able to see where the "tone" arguments of these woods and finishes matches between acoustics and electrics.

Jakedog · March 31st, 2008, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pengipete

Thanks Jake. Now I've been sussed and I'll actually have to start knowing what I'm talking about before posting.

.

Sorry if I came across wrong, wasn't trying to smack you down brother, just clear things up. Apologies if I sounded like a well, you know.

Sometimes my shortcomings where social skills are concerned translate to a computer screen far too well.

Jake

rocksteady Max · March 31st, 2008, 09:46 AM

... just not a good idea. Let the time do its wonder.
(my 0,02$)

Caffeine Patrol · March 31st, 2008, 10:45 AM

I was going to say it's because us bluegrassers are smarterest, but then there's this:
http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/DF5M.htm

Colt W. Knight · March 31st, 2008, 10:55 AM

I've seen some reliced acoustics. I even saw a video on youtube where they where checking a Gibson with aerosol air. Relicing on a fragile acoustic would be detrimental, not just aesthetic. Beating the sound board of an acoustic could cause cracks, and removing finish leaves it susceptible moisture. Acoustics hate arid climates and changes in humidity.

Colt W. Knight · March 31st, 2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esteban

Glen Hansard of The Frames has an old beat up acoustic... I actually think it looks cool, but IMO relicing an electric, which is just stuff to the finish, hardware, and neck, is "easier" than relicing an acoustic.

This guy needs to pay attention to his right hand technique a little more.

telesavant · March 31st, 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephent2

Well, some are. Here's my Washburn 125th Anniversary Parlor. The buyer's market for high end acoustics is so different, lot's of a-retentive folks where a scratch or end pin jack is sacrilege.

Beautiful!!! .....give us more pics, info, cost, availibility etc.

Guitfiddler · March 31st, 2008, 11:15 AM

I don't get the relic thing. I've yet to see one that looks naturally aged. To me they look like a new guitar thats been beat up and sanded down to bare wood in some places.

Plus, I enjoy the natural wear/oxidation of my own guitar. The guitar I've had the longest is only about seven years old, and isn't beat up too bad, but I could tell where every ding and scrape came from.

My acoustics also seem to get beat up faster b/c of hard strumming and softer wood.

eryque · March 31st, 2008, 11:26 AM

Maybe it's because every time you bang your acoustic against something it makes a big "whack" sound amplified by the soundbox, which makes you feel guiltier about it?

I honestly don't think there's any rational way to explain it, though I prefer the look and feel of a well-worn acoustic.

esteban · March 31st, 2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esteban

Glen Hansard of The Frames has an old beat up acoustic... I actually think it looks cool, but IMO relicing an electric, which is just stuff to the finish, hardware, and neck, is "easier" than relicing an acoustic.

http://silver-starlight.net/blog/ima...mes/encore.jpg

OK I could've sworn that when I submitted this post, the picture showed up.... sorry bout the gray bar thing!

Southern ILL · March 31st, 2008, 01:21 PM

MORE INFO!!! ON the WAshburN!!! PLEASE !!

whodatpat · March 31st, 2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocksteady Max

... just not a good idea. Let the time do its wonder.
(my 0,02$)

Thats my feeling for all guitars. Of course I cant wait till people want "relliced" pickup trucks! :-)

bradpdx · March 31st, 2008, 04:43 PM

Good question, really. In the acoustic market, old Martins and Gibsons command prices that are in line with old Fender electrics, and many of the great old guitars from the 1930s and 40s in fact are pretty darn reliced from real use.

I think it has to do with the perceived market for such items, and the companies involved.

The market is greatly affected by who plays what, just as in electrics. Certainly the roster of players who use Martins is formidable, but few of those artists are strongly associated with particular guitars (with some exceptions).

Moreover I believe it has to do with the aesthetics and history of the market. In electric guitars and rock there is a strong component of "rebellion" coupled with, shall we say, friskier lifestyles and colorful characters. Add to this the fact that most electric music is played in public houses that serve alcohol and there becomes a romance around the tools that survive. Finally, electric guitars started rock and roll, and versa vice.

Even the great acoustic players don't really have that combination of ingredients. Tony Rice isn't smashing his Santa Cruz dreadnaught at the end of the show, and Leo Kottke isn't going to do windmills on his 12-string. The nature of much of the music is just less raucous, drunk and youthful. And that is not a bad thing, not at all.

So while Martin could produce a "relic" D-28 anytime they want to, my bet is that it is not what the market wants. The folk/bluegrass/acoustic market doesn't have a romance about it like rock does.

One more bit that works against acoustic relics: the materials. If you want a reproduction of a 1938 Martin D-28, you must make it with Brazilian Rosewood and Adirondack Spruce, two woods in extremely short supply. Martin will build you one for an appropriate price; around $40K.

Go ahead, put the first big ding in that one. You first.

Del Pickup · March 31st, 2008, 05:16 PM

The only well known 'relic' acoustic I've ever seen is Willie Nelson's and that just looks like a horse stood on it at the last barn dance. There's nothing aesthetically pleasing about that guitar at all as far as I can see.

People - even millionaire rock stars - tend to be more careful with their acoustics cos they're more fragile to start with. OK, Bruce Springsteen has been known to throw his acoustic to his roadie every so often but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Because of the fragility of acoustics I think that a second hand beat-up guitar wouldn't be that appealing to the general masses who would tend to view the owner/seller as a careless so-and-so and therefore be less inclined to pay top dollar in case there was something else wrong with the instrument.

There aren't any reliced semi-acoustic electrics like 335's etc on the market either for the same reason.

So the Hendrix/SRV/Rory Gallagher type beat up electric syndrome just doesn't apply to acoustics as far as I can see.

March 31st, 2008, 08:38 AM	#1 (permalink)
skydawg Removed Tele-Afflicted Join Date: May 2006 Location: GREATER CHICAGOLAND AREA, USA Age: 55 Posts: 1,158	Why aren't acoustics being "reliced"? Title says it all. I just got to wondering.

March 31st, 2008, 08:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Telenator Friend of Leo's Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,300	An excellent question. Makes perfect sense, yet no one is doing it. Kinda like "Harmonica Karaoke." Makes perfect sense but no one is doing it. __________________ Dogs have the right idea!

March 31st, 2008, 08:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
esteban Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 19 Posts: 1,114 3 Photos	Glen Hansard of The Frames has an old beat up acoustic... I actually think it looks cool, but IMO relicing an electric, which is just stuff to the finish, hardware, and neck, is "easier" than relicing an acoustic. http://silver-starlight.net/blog/ima...mes/encore.jpg __________________ When I die, they'll say, he couldn't play sh*t, but he sure made it sound good. - Hound Dog Taylor Last edited by TDPRI : March 31st, 2008 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Image with 15" of gray bar below it changed to a link. Please pay attention to what you a linking to and when it doesn't work then please edit your post.

March 31st, 2008, 09:01 AM	#6 (permalink)
stephent2 Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA. Age: 57 Posts: 2,169 20 Photos	Well, some are. Here's my Washburn 125th Anniversary Parlor. The buyer's market for high end acoustics is so different, lot's of a-retentive folks where a scratch or end pin jack is sacrilege. __________________ 3. If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers. - - Thomas Pynchon

March 31st, 2008, 09:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Maestro Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The United Lowlands Of Holland Posts: 728	I think it is because people would be more careful with acoustics since they are more easily damaged than electrics. __________________ A clean conscience is usually the result of a bad memory.

March 31st, 2008, 08:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
Derek S Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: EL PUEBLO VIEJO Posts: 241	Because a reliced acoustic is just a beat up guitar? On the other hand, a reliced electric gives the buyer the feel of being their favorite rockstar with a seriously expensive piece of wood ....I'm guessing.

March 31st, 2008, 08:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
pengipete Tele-Holic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gloucester U.K. Age: 47 Posts: 909	Because they're worth a shed load more money in good nick and because, with very few exceptions, there is far less interest in "vinatge" acoustics because the majority of them that could be associated with or of interste to people involved with blues etc were cheap crappy instruments - how else could those original guys been able to afford them. There's also the fact that the "vintage" of acoustic guitars doesn't have clear starting points like, say, a Telecaster so you'd need to be looking at a 200 year old instrument to get any real sense of history. Of course the most obvious reason is that the acoustic hasn't really changed that much during the last hundred years unlike the electrics which have been evolving year on year during many of our lifetimes and have certain "sweet-spots" in their history that people can aim for. Add to that the fact that there's no real association with any particular brand and any particular musical style and the acoustic guitar's desirability remains focused on its sound rather than on any other side issues.

March 31st, 2008, 09:06 AM	#9 (permalink)
RickG501 Tele-Holic Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Age: 54 Posts: 676	Very cool looking Washburn! Pengi, World War ll is the starting point. Pre-War Martins go for a ton of dough, condition does affect the price but I've seen some banged up stuff for top dollar.

March 31st, 2008, 09:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Big John Friend of Leo's Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 3,757 33 Photos	Well, here's a good one to try and copy ....... __________________ If you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly !!

March 31st, 2008, 09:46 AM	#13 (permalink)
rocksteady Max Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Montréal Age: 26 Posts: 238	... just not a good idea. Let the time do its wonder. (my 0,02$)

March 31st, 2008, 10:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
Caffeine Patrol Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 272	I was going to say it's because us bluegrassers are smarterest, but then there's this: http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/DF5M.htm

March 31st, 2008, 10:55 AM	#15 (permalink)
Colt W. Knight Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wyoming Age: 24 Posts: 1,420	I've seen some reliced acoustics. I even saw a video on youtube where they where checking a Gibson with aerosol air. Relicing on a fragile acoustic would be detrimental, not just aesthetic. Beating the sound board of an acoustic could cause cracks, and removing finish leaves it susceptible moisture. Acoustics hate arid climates and changes in humidity.

March 31st, 2008, 11:15 AM	#18 (permalink)
Guitfiddler TDPRI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: San Marcos, Texas Age: 25 Posts: 59	I don't get the relic thing. I've yet to see one that looks naturally aged. To me they look like a new guitar thats been beat up and sanded down to bare wood in some places. Plus, I enjoy the natural wear/oxidation of my own guitar. The guitar I've had the longest is only about seven years old, and isn't beat up too bad, but I could tell where every ding and scrape came from. My acoustics also seem to get beat up faster b/c of hard strumming and softer wood.

March 31st, 2008, 11:26 AM	#19 (permalink)
eryque Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: albany, ny [not chicago] Posts: 6,815 44 Photos	Maybe it's because every time you bang your acoustic against something it makes a big "whack" sound amplified by the soundbox, which makes you feel guiltier about it? I honestly don't think there's any rational way to explain it, though I prefer the look and feel of a well-worn acoustic. __________________ my blog: eryque.blogspot.com Updated 10.27.07 Subscribe_____________________

March 31st, 2008, 01:21 PM	#21 (permalink)
Southern ILL Tele-Holic Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Illinois Age: 37 Posts: 719	MORE INFO!!! ON the WAshburN!!! PLEASE !!

March 31st, 2008, 04:43 PM	#23 (permalink)
bradpdx Tele-Holic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Portland, OR Age: 50 Posts: 569	Good question, really. In the acoustic market, old Martins and Gibsons command prices that are in line with old Fender electrics, and many of the great old guitars from the 1930s and 40s in fact are pretty darn reliced from real use. I think it has to do with the perceived market for such items, and the companies involved. The market is greatly affected by who plays what, just as in electrics. Certainly the roster of players who use Martins is formidable, but few of those artists are strongly associated with particular guitars (with some exceptions). Moreover I believe it has to do with the aesthetics and history of the market. In electric guitars and rock there is a strong component of "rebellion" coupled with, shall we say, friskier lifestyles and colorful characters. Add to this the fact that most electric music is played in public houses that serve alcohol and there becomes a romance around the tools that survive. Finally, electric guitars started rock and roll, and versa vice. Even the great acoustic players don't really have that combination of ingredients. Tony Rice isn't smashing his Santa Cruz dreadnaught at the end of the show, and Leo Kottke isn't going to do windmills on his 12-string. The nature of much of the music is just less raucous, drunk and youthful. And that is not a bad thing, not at all. So while Martin could produce a "relic" D-28 anytime they want to, my bet is that it is not what the market wants. The folk/bluegrass/acoustic market doesn't have a romance about it like rock does. One more bit that works against acoustic relics: the materials. If you want a reproduction of a 1938 Martin D-28, you must make it with Brazilian Rosewood and Adirondack Spruce, two woods in extremely short supply. Martin will build you one for an appropriate price; around $40K. Go ahead, put the first big ding in that one. You first. __________________ ---------- Tech Geek and Sensitive Artiste String bender ordinare!

March 31st, 2008, 05:16 PM	#24 (permalink)
Del Pickup Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 256 5 Photos	The only well known 'relic' acoustic I've ever seen is Willie Nelson's and that just looks like a horse stood on it at the last barn dance. There's nothing aesthetically pleasing about that guitar at all as far as I can see. People - even millionaire rock stars - tend to be more careful with their acoustics cos they're more fragile to start with. OK, Bruce Springsteen has been known to throw his acoustic to his roadie every so often but that's the exception rather than the rule. Because of the fragility of acoustics I think that a second hand beat-up guitar wouldn't be that appealing to the general masses who would tend to view the owner/seller as a careless so-and-so and therefore be less inclined to pay top dollar in case there was something else wrong with the instrument. There aren't any reliced semi-acoustic electrics like 335's etc on the market either for the same reason. So the Hendrix/SRV/Rory Gallagher type beat up electric syndrome just doesn't apply to acoustics as far as I can see.